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/// FTPermutations /// http://www.webartery.com /// # From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 5:54 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention Even with that backup, there is the question of an audience. Who is going to know to use a .directory? This is the crux - it's not the artists who are being hijacked; it's the viewers; what they most likely were faced with, is confusion. Alan |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 5:43 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview > > i must say, after actually looking at FTPermuations i find the piece > > fine.ly exe.cuted & quite obvious ][iconically][....... > > Me, too. I am surprised - actually quite baffled and disappointed - how > anxious/paranoid otherwise smart net artists - especially those whose > aesthetics is willingly close to hacker aesthetics - can get over their > supposed "originals" and "works" (as if they were 19th century > paintings). > > Florian This is fine... But, it reallllllllly misses the point of the frustration.... Is there anything wrong with wanting my work to be seen as intended...? |||||||||||||||||||| # From: Reiner Strasser <reiner.s@n...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 6:53 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention - cutUp fun and pleasure are the root.s of {net}.culture (sorry - I have forgotten this and am happy that someone tells me the truth) r. > the reactions of some of the involved artists show by themselves the > importance of this action, if nothing more even just to show how far from > its roots is net.culture going -- and net.art in particular --. if anybody > of you have ever had a website in a do-it-yourselfe-server you'd know that > this kind of pranks happens quite often, and these reactions simply confirm > a complete lack of sense of humour and irony, which is something that has > always let the net being such a funny place. >[...] > taking yourselves too seriously can get > dangerous. > > "Art is alive! Enjoy it, laugh at it, hate it or love it, but do not adore > it! We are not in a church, hang it on your walls, clean your asses with it > perhaps...but use it!" > > Savage Messiah, Ken Russel, 1972. |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "Tim Whidden" <twhid@m...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 7:25 pm # Subject: Re: web art and intervention --- In webartery@y..., Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...> wrote: > > > Even with that backup, there is the question of an audience. Who is going > to know to use a .directory? > > This is the crux - it's not the artists who are being hijacked; it's the > viewers; what they most likely were faced with, is confusion. > > Alan this is a good point. i wasn't aware of the so-called hack before viewing the site. i wasn't confused really. i thought the web master had just screwed up somehow. but i'm familiar with the artists work, so when i clicked on entropy8 and got superbad instead, i was aware within the first 2 pages that i had been misdirected. then it was just frustrating, you couldn't view the work in the order you decided. |||||||||||||||||||| # From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 6:00 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview It's not over originals - at least it wouldn't be in my case - but over audience and site/placement. If this is a Korean first, so to speak, there's a responsibility to the public who probably couldn't care less about net.art dead or alive. And this is denying a lot of hard work to make the stuff understandable. There's also no reason why a curator should really know to look through a unix system for .directories - one would hope for that understanding, but at least among the curators I know, the main emphasis is on content and networking, not on tech. Alan |||||||||||||||||||| # From: komninos zervos <k.zervos@m...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 9:10 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention - cutUp seems this work is state of the art, addressing the greatest issues of our art and time, issues discussed regularly on this list, testing all the theories expressed on ownership, this medium and its capabilities, high art/popular art, censorship, identity, code art, hack art, drag and drop art. just my opinion. komninos ps haven't visited the site now or during its auto-re-configuring state. komninos |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "adrian buchster" <buchster_adrian@h...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 8:30 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview Hi all, as I'd like to write a text on Radical Art and the Digital I am quite interested in what is happening regarding the Korea exhibition and 010101. There are two aspect that it seems were not previously discussed on the list: 1. 010101 was not "caught" by anybody, I myself got 3 or 4 copies of their message about this so called "action" while they were doing it, so it was done somehow in a "public" way, not in secret. 2. after this "action" 010101 was cut from the website of the Korea Festival -- at least I read this into the 01website -- so that now they don't have any more the FTP access to the exhibition and cannot update or in anyway modify their own work, as this seems to be the original "idea" -- again as far as I got from the mail in their site. Of course it's difficult to agree with such a work, but on the other side it seems to me that the curators reaction is really not very smart, I mean, now 010101, not having any more "power" on their own work are somehow in a worst situation than any other involved artist. And on last thing is that I don't understand all this speaking about "defacing", "erasing" and "damaging" artworks, they only replaced some directories but the works themselves were all there and visible during the show, isn't it? correct me if I'm wrong but this is quite different from "deface" a painting, it's more like replacing canvases one each other during an opening... AB |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:05 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention The 0100101110101101 Statement: > the reactions of some of the involved artists show by themselves the > importance of this action, and 0100101110101101 is prepared to teach these artists a lesson... > if nothing more even just to show how far from > its roots is net.culture going -- and net.art in particular --. An overblown historicizing of medium not many pay attention to. > if anybody > of you have ever had a website in a do-it-yourselfe-server you'd know that > this kind of pranks happens quite often, To the shagrin of network administrotors.... If this is a 'prank' -- a bit of humor -- at the who's expense...? > and these reactions simply confirm > a complete lack of sense of humour and irony, which is something that has > always let the net being such a funny place. who is laughing at this...? Also, if this political, and meant to draw attention to [agreed] some important issues, why now slight the action as a 'prank'...? The problem is not in the reaction but in the intentionality of the 0100101110101101 piece... Outside of the expressed prank, what is the intent? They don't say... Rather, the ploy here is to attack the artist for defending their work.... Which, in fact, 0100101110101101 is doing by making this statement... Defending their work.... Claiming, in a sense, a Right to do this to other people's files because it is ART, and it is important ART, and it is political ART.... Though the prank may be harmless to the work that was altered --- something like the pie-in-the-face pranks against Bill Gates, or the CEO of Monsanto -- it has no effect because it has occurred in somewhat exclusive sphere... There is not enough public understanding of the politics that are claimed to be addressed here for this to trickle down, and back up to change much of anything.... As Alan pointed out, all it will have done is made other curators skeptical about presenting WebArt.... > these reaciton reminds me the > one of traditional painters arguing at the Biennials because their painting > has been hanged a couple of centimeters too right, or the lights are too > strong, or the water is not cold enough and all this shit that have always > characterised the traditional art world. The action itself strikes me as verrrrrrrrry 'art world'.... > renaming some directories is > nothing serious nor dangerous. taking yourselves too seriously can get > dangerous. If this is neither 'serious' nor 'dangerous' what risk has been taken by the artists? Apparently this was only a prank, or that is the only way the artist have so far seen fit to defend it.... ____ There is a strange poiltical confusion between 'ownership' and some sense of pride in the created work... ______ Still, what ticked me the most in all of this is the statement more than the action. ______ |||||||||||||||||||| # From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:12 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention - cutUp this for me is a problem, komninos - to me it's just vandalism justified by a way outmoded and misplaced aesthetics. but as long as we encourage stuff like this as "state of the art" - we'll lose our audience. look, I don't mind going to Jodi and having them mess my machine up. or other sites. as a viewer, that's my choice. but as Talan said, people might want to see his work the way he intended it. the other thing - that really angers me - if we're going to have ftp messing - why not do it with the US State Dept.? why attack what little alternative culture that remains? there are a LOT of targets out there that could use messing, beyond someone other than el quaeda supports - Alan |||||||||||||||||||| # From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:14 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, adrian buchster wrote: > Of course it's difficult to agree with such a work, but on the other side it > seems to me that the curators reaction is really not very smart, I mean, now > 010101, not having any more "power" on their own work are somehow in a worst > situation than any other involved artist. > So what? They hacked, they were hacked - look at it that way. If you're prepared to do x, you should also be prepared for the consequences. - Alan |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:15 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview > 1. 010101 was not "caught" by anybody, I myself got 3 or 4 copies of their > message about this so called "action" while they were doing it, so it was > done somehow in a "public" way, not in secret. An opt-in list? Not public then..... And, was the general visitor to the Festival site informed? The 01010 site was not the target, nor the destination. As one of the participating artists, I had no idea this was going to, or was happening. > 2. after this "action" 010101 was cut from the website of the Korea Festival > -- at least I read this into the 01website -- so that now they don't have > any more the FTP access to the exhibition and cannot update or in anyway > modify their own work, as this seems to be the original "idea" -- again as > far as I got from the mail in their site. > Of course it's difficult to agree with such a work, but on the other side it > seems to me that the curators reaction is really not very smart, I mean, now > 010101, not having any more "power" on their own work are somehow in a worst > situation than any other involved artist. > They were cut, because the curator and the network guy track the 'problem', 'action', whatever to them.... Since they didn't know -- the movement looked suspicious.... You can't blame the Festival for thinking someone was screwing with stuff on the server -- since someone was.... A little bit of disclosure on their part could have prevented their loss of FTP access. If one is going to make [so-called] political risky work, they have to be prepared to face the consequences... |||||||||||||||||||| From: revere1955@m... Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 11:37 pm Subject: Re: Vito Acconci :| can't seem to find the original post. looked here, there, everywhere. :( someone musta steeled it. and.. i think it might be important to study re: italians and their relationship with fibonacci permutations. is there a message # that goes with it? susan ________________________________________________________________ --- In webartery@y..., "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...> wrote: > At 01:39 AM 12/4/2001 -0500, you wrote: > > alan wrote [in a great post:] > > > >anyway, the point in all of this, if there is one, is that there is a > >dialectic among disruption, artist, audience, theory, and site - and this > >dialectic seems sadly absent in a lot of hacking work, which reverts back > >almost to male adolescent messiness. |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 9:57 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview At 05:59 PM 12/4/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Am Tue, 04.Dec.2001 um 11:09:36 +1100 schrieb ][D(NA).fence][: > > > > http://www.nettime.org/nettime.w3archive/199912/msg00064.html > > > > [after a quick read i remembered they also hacked jodi's site -ooh, how > >Actually, they only copied it to their own server. heya florian, sorry florian, was being flippant there:)[the tone obviously didn't scribe thru...i should have add.ed more emoticons;)] > > _criminal_ of me 2 4get that!;)..they also have a virus piece in this > years > > biennial...]..i think they r italian from memory? > > From Bologna, yes. A gal and a guy. (Great guys, btw, IMHO.) yeah, thought i'd read that somewhere........ > > i must say, after actually looking at FTPermuations i find the piece > > fine.ly exe.cuted & quite obvious ][iconically][....... > >Me, too. I am surprised - actually quite baffled and disappointed - how >anxious/paranoid otherwise smart net artists - especially those whose >aesthetics is willingly close to hacker aesthetics - can get over their >supposed "originals" and "works" (as if they were 19th century >paintings). yes, there seems 2 b a certain amount of preciousness re:garding this......although i can understand the hostile reception 2 the n.tervention via the ][korean political][ hierarchy. chunks, mez |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...> # Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 10:26 pm # Subject: Re: [webartery] web art and intervention - cutUp At 05:12 PM 12/4/2001 -0500, you wrote: >this for me is a problem, komninos - to me it's just vandalism justified >by a way outmoded and misplaced aesthetics. > >but as long as we encourage stuff like this as "state of the art" - we'll >lose our audience. heya alan, i'm having a difficult time here in terms of yr stance on _audience_ and reception_ of 0100101110101101.ORG's n.tervention.....in lite of yr own practice.....many could think that the using the net.wurk's x.tended distribution function [ie sending pieces thru the email e.ther][e][] as n.vasive & unwanted....it is a cooler form of n.vervention, but still thrusts the work in2 an audience that ][may][b unkeen in terms of reception......even the act of n.stalling a filter could b e.quated with an audience's necessary re.action 2 n.trusive data presentation......... >look, I don't mind going to Jodi and having them mess my machine up. or >other sites. as a viewer, that's my choice. but as Talan said, people >might want to see his work the way he intended it. .....was the n.tervention n.tended 2 run 4 the complete span of the exhibition? >the other thing - that really angers me - if we're going to have ftp >messing - why not do it with the US State Dept.? why attack what little >alternative culture that remains? ....i'm worried about the "attack" terminology thats b.ing used here.........[not saying its not valid, it just concerns me]....... cheers, mez |||||||||||||||||||| # From: "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...> # Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 12:22 am # Subject: ah ha... Just looking through Sunday's nettime posts and there it is.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Announcer" <nettime-l@b...> To: <nettime-l@b...> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 6:41 PM Subject: <nettime> Announcements [x10] > > Table of Contents: ______________ > The Korea Web Art Festival Is Online! > tfa <tfa@c...> > > /// 0100101110101101.ORG /// FTPermutations > FTPermutations@0... > > ___________ > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:15:24 +0900 > From: tfa <tfa@c...> > Subject: The Korea Web Art Festival Is Online! > > The first Korea Web Art Festival: "Alone Together," curated by Marc > Voge, features exclusive new work by the following artists: > > - - Mark Amerika > - - Candy Factory > - - Critical Art Ensemble > - - Entropy8Zuper! > - - Lisa Jevbratt > - - Sean Kerr > - - Talan Memmott > - - Motomichi Nakamura > - - Beth Stryker + Sawad Brooks > - - Superbad > - - YOUNG-HAE CHANG HEAVY INDUSTRIES > - - 0100101110101101.ORG > > http://www.koreawebart.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:45:19 +0100 > From: FTPermutations@0... > Subject: /// 0100101110101101.ORG /// FTPermutations > > > > > > /// FTPermutations /// HTTP://WWW.0100101110101101.ORG /// > > > > > /// WHO > > > > > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > 0100101110101101.ORG > > > > > /// WHEN > > > > > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > Dec 02 2001 - 02:00:00 > > > > > /// WHERE > > > > > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > http://www.koreawebart.org > > > > > /// WHAT > > > > > 0100101110101101.ORG --> Entropy8Zuper! > Beth Stryker --> Lisa Jevbratt > Candy Factory --> Beth Stryker > Critical Art Ensemble --> Sean Kerr > Entropy8Zuper! --> Superbad > Lisa Jevbratt --> Motomichi Nakamura > Mark Amerika --> YOUNG-HAE CHANG HEAVY INDUSTRIES > Motomichi Nakamura --> 0100101110101101.ORG > Sean Kerr --> Talan Memmott > Superbad --> Critical Art Ensemble > Talan Memmott --> Mark Amerika > YOUNG-HAE_CHANG --> Candy Factory > > > > > /// WHY > > > > > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/0100101110101101org > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/beth > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Candy_Factory > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Critical_Art_Ensemble > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Entropy8Zuper!/ > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Lisa_Jevbratt > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Mark_Amerika > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Motomichi_Nakamura > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Sean_Kerr > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Superbad > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/Talan_Memmott > http://www.koreawebart.org/artist/YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES > > > > > /// HOW > > > > > 220 kiri1 Microsoft FTP Service (Version 5.0). > USER 0100101110101101org > 331 Password required for 0100101110101101org. > PASS ****** > 230-hi thank you !! > 230- > 230-If You want to see uploaded files in the browser , > 230-type this way... > 230- > 230-http://www.koreawebart.org > 230-/artist/(yourid)/(filename) > 230- > 230-ex ) myid - sson and upload file - default.html > 230-http://www.koreawebart.org > 230-/artist/sson/default.html > 230- > 230 User 0100101110101101org logged in. > SITE DIRSTYLE > 200 MSDOS-like directory output is off > SITE DIRSTYLE > 200 MSDOS-like directory output is on > CWD /artist/ > 250 CWD command successful. > PORT 172,26,0,2,59,137 > 200 PORT command successful. > TYPE A > 200 Type set to A. > LIST > 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for /bin/ls. > 12-02-01 02:35AM <DIR> 0100101110101101org > 12-01-01 07:31AM <DIR> beth > 11-09-01 05:23PM <DIR> Candy_Factory > 11-29-01 06:30AM <DIR> Critical_Art_Ensemble > 11-28-01 01:39AM <DIR> Entropy8Zuper! > 11-08-01 07:53PM <DIR> Lisa_Jevbratt > 11-11-01 02:38PM <DIR> Mark_Amerika > 11-13-01 02:33PM <DIR> Motomichi_Nakamura > 11-20-01 07:27AM <DIR> Sean_Kerr > 11-27-01 05:26AM <DIR> Superbad > 11-16-01 11:24AM <DIR> Talan_Memmott > 11-23-01 12:55PM <DIR> YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES > 226 Transfer complete. > PWD > 257 "/artist" is current directory. > NOOP > 200 NOOP command successful. > RNFR Motomichi_Nakamura > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Motomichi_Nakamura- > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR 0100101110101101org > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Motomichi_Nakamura > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Candy_Factory > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Candy_Factory- > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR beth > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Candy_Factory > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES-- > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Candy_Factory- > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Superbad > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Superbad- > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Critical_Art_Ensemble > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Superbad > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Entropy8Zuper! > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO 0100101110101101org > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Lisa_Jevbratt > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO beth > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Talan_Memmott > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Talan_Memmott- > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Mark_Amerika > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Talan_Memmott > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Motomichi_Nakamura- > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Lisa_Jevbratt > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Sean_Kerr > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Critical_Art_Ensemble > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Superbad- > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Entropy8Zuper! > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR Talan_Memmott- > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Sean_Kerr > 250 RNTO command successful. > RNFR YOUNG-HAE_CHANG_HEAVY_INDUSTRIES-- > 350 File exists, ready for destination name > RNTO Mark_Amerika > 250 RNTO command successful. > quit > 221 bye > > > > > /// FTPermutations /// HTTP://WWW.0100101110101101.ORG /// |||||||||||||||||||| From: Jennifer Ley <jtley@home.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:29:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview Florian Cramer wrote: > > Me, too. I am surprised - actually quite baffled and disappointed - how > anxious/paranoid otherwise smart net artists - especially those whose > aesthetics is willingly close to hacker aesthetics - can get over their > supposed "originals" and "works" (as if they were 19th century > paintings). Well, so now we have an aesthetics of disdain? I'm with Alan in thinking there are much better targets for net interventions. When one group of artists spends their time needing to be superior to another group of artists ... please. Did anyone know that the possibility of peace between North and South Korea, and any resultant settlement and/or industrialization of the DMZ threatens scores of species either indigneous to that area, or who utilize the DMV on migration routes? The the conflict between the two Korea's has actually resulted in a the creation of a safe haven for flora and fauna? Or that the US won't sign the land mine treaty because they feel they still need land mines in the DMZ? Do I think anyone is stupid or out of touch or lacking in human feeling because they might not know these things? No. Do I wish they did? Yes. I guess this is my Korean Web Art Intervention. Jennifer /// FTPermutations /// http://www.webartery.com /// _______________________________________________ Nettime-bold mailing list Nettime-bold@nettime.org http://amsterdam.nettime.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nettime-bold