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[Nettime-bold] Re: [syndicate] Re: Suicide Bombers
Ivo Skoric on Tue, 30 Apr 2002 02:55:02 +0200 (CEST)


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[Nettime-bold] Re: [syndicate] Re: Suicide Bombers


But Sharon also claims that he conducts legitimate operations to 
protect Israel, and Albanians in Kosovo also claimed that Milosevic 
is commanding an occupying force?! Is it all in our perception? Can 
Jews be occupiers on the land they left 2000 years ago? Can not 
Serbs be occupiers on the land they never really left, just because 
they became a minority? I think this is irrelevant from the 
humanitarian law aspect. It is WHAT they do, and HOW they do it, 
not WHY they do it, that matters. Of course, what must enrage 
you is the fantastically opposite stance that the U.S. government is 
taking (pro-KLA, anti-Milosevic, yet pro-Sharon and anti-KLA)...I 
mean they were ready to go in bed with Osama himself just to 
topple Milosevic, and here they behave as Sharon's poodles.
ivo

From:           	"Andrej Tisma" <aart {AT} EUnet.yu>
To:             	<ivo {AT} reporters.net>, "Miroslav Visic" <visic {AT} PIPELINE.COM>
Subject:        	Re: [syndicate] Re: Suicide Bombers
Date sent:      	Mon, 29 Apr 2002 02:23:42 +0200
Organization:   	Happiness

There are some more differences between Milosevic and Sharon:

1. Milosevic, as opposed to Sharon, was conducting legitimate anti-terrorist
operations ON THE SOVEREIGN AND CONSTITUENT TERRITORY OF JUGOSLAVIA
(Kosovo).  Sharon, on the other hand, has been carrying out his bloody deeds
ON OCCUPIED LANDS.


2. True, Albanian civilians were occasionally 'caught in the crossfire'
during these anti-terrorist operations.  However, Milosevic's anti-terrorist
operations could hardly be said to have been aimed at THE COMPLETE
DESTRUCTION OF THE KOSOVAR ALBANIAN CIVILIANS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.  Sharon's
bloody operations, on the other hand, are self-evidently DESIGNED TO
COMPLETELY DESTROY THE CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE PALESTINIANS MAKING
THE ALREADY MARGINAL EXISTENCE OF THE PALESTINIANS IMPOSSIBLE.


3. When Milosevic made an agreement with the Holbrooke to withdraw
Jugoslavian National Army and Serbian anti-terrorist forces from Kosovo, he
held to that agreement and with dispatch withdrew those forces.  Sharon, on
the other hand, HAS HEMMED, HAWED, DAWDLED AND DELAYED AT EVERY JUNCTURE.
In spite of the Shrub's 'insistence' that Sharon withdraw his forces from
the West Bank every such 'withdrawal' hailed by the mainline media is
nothing more than a strategic pullback to just outside the Palestinian towns
and cities accompanied by numerous and repeated 'sweeps' through yet more
Palestinian towns and cities.



----- Original Message -----
From: Ivo Skoric <ivo {AT} reporters.net>
To: Miroslav Visic <visic {AT} PIPELINE.COM>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:32 PM
Subject: [syndicate] Re: Suicide Bombers


> It is very tricky to defend Milosevic's action in Kosovo, while trying
> to expose Sharon's action in West Bank. Because, Sharon also
> claims that he is just after the armed and 'uniformed' members of
> well defined and named terrorist/paramilitary Palestinian formations
> - Albanian paramilitaries (KLA) that Milosevic was after even have
> the same letter "L" in the middle of their name just like PLO does,
> hinting that they had the same objective: LIBERATION.
>
> "The government force was appropriate to the nature of target,
> terrain and the objective." - we hear that all the time from
> aggressors around the world, don't we? It doesn't matter whether
> their name is Milosevic or Sharon. And Milosevic, indeed, did not
> use F16s and Apaches in Kosovo - but not out of his humane
> restraint: he didn't use them because he didn't have them. He had
> Drenica levelled to the ground just as Sharon had done it to
> Ramallah, killing one terrorist in fifty dead civilians or so.
>
> True, Albanians did not blow up themselves in Belgrade on
> Orthodox Easter - now, in retrospect, maybe that would get some
> attention of Belgrade intelligentsia to their decade-long suffering
> under the martial-law - but that is because their local struggle
> worked well. KLA was much better matched to the Yugoslav Army
> than PLO is to the Israeli Army. KLA did not have to fight against
> the latest military technology available to the Israeli Army, which
> made their fight more fair - they did never have to resort to the most
> desperate of weapons, the suicide bomber.
>
> That's where US responsibility comes in: because it is the US that
> armed the Israelis with this hi-tech weapons. It is also worth to
> note that ALL US administrations insisted legally that Israelis can
> use that weapons only in the defense from an external attack, as
> former President Carter already publicly pointed out. The use of
> those weapons against Palestinian refugee camps is a clear
> violation of the US law that allowed Israelis to purchase those
> weapons in the first place. I am appalled tha this breach of contract
> issue did not already prompt US Congress to call for sanctions
> against Israel, at least an arms embargo would be in order...
>
> ivo
>
> Date sent:      Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:47:41 -0400
> Send reply to:  International Justice Watch Discussion List
>              <JUSTWATCH-L {AT} LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> From:           Miroslav Visic <visic {AT} PIPELINE.COM>
> Organization:   New World Disorder
> Subject:        Re: Suicide Bombers
> To:             JUSTWATCH-L {AT} LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
>
> The difference between (suspected) war criminal Milosevic and (suspected)
war
> criminal Sharon is that Milosevic sent military and police to chase well
defined
> terrorist paramilitary organization (KLA) whose members were armed and who
wore
> the uniforms. The Albanian terrorists were in rural, scarcely populated or
> unpopulated areas. The government force was appropriate to the nature of
target,
> terrain and the objective. It doesn't matter, if they attacked pizza
parlor or
> not, the point is what appropriate response was.
>
> Sharon sent heavy armor, tanks and artillery, Apache helicopters and F-16
> fighter jets to attack civilian population with understanding that 1 out
of 50
> or 200 people might be terrorist. I am surprised that some people,
including
> Steve, support it. When did you see any civilized country do the same?
When "Red
> Brigades" operated in Italy, Italians didn't send tanks and helicopters,
they
> used their elite anti-terrorist police.
>
> But I am really concerned with the following kind of thinking:
>
> MV: "Are they (terrorists) targeting us because they are envious of our
life
> style? Suicide bombers - why do they hate life?"
>
> Steve: "Well, Miroslav, I really don't know, nor quite frankly do I care."
>
> I think Steve, like most apologists of Israel's occupation, fail to
recognize
> the fact that as a result of ethnic cleansing, the sizable amount of land
was
> stolen from Palestinians. The policy of our government is to support the
country
> that stole that land, the country that runs apartheid style society. At
the same
> time, our governments are denying Palestinians UN recognized universal
right to
> self defense.
>
> As a result of such policy, myself and other people of dignity and
decency, are
> also potential targets because of stand of our government. I don't want to
be
> target just because Bush and some powerful lobbies support Israel. Israel
does
> nothing for me, except, as right now, making me a more likely target of
people
> who, in their desperate search for freedom, resort to all means they may
have at
> their disposal.
>
> However, the latest crisis opened a crucial question - more and more
people are
> asking is it in our best interest to support Israel? Do we really have
strategic
> interest in it? Do we buy oil from Israel? When did we last time use their
soil
> to enhance our interests in the Middle east? Why they spy on us if we are
> friends? Or this importance altogether a bogus concept, as a result of
lobbying
> of our corrupt politicians?
>
> I think 9/11 and the position that all world (except  couple of Australian
> tabloids) are taken, should teach us a lesson. As for Israelis, if they
want
> peace, they know what they need to do: return the land that's not theirs.
>
>
> Steve Albert wrote:
>
> > I particularly like these lines from MIroslav's post :
> >
> > Who sends tanks and F-16s to "fight
> > terrorism" in urban areas densely populated by civilians?
> >
> > I wonder whether I should repost some of  Mirolslav's remarks about how
> > Serbian troops were fighting Kosovar terrorism.
> >
> > Maybe my memory is failing me but I don't seem to remember Kosovars
blowing
> > themselves up in pizza parlors in Belgrade, or during celebrations of
the
> > Orthodox Easter.
> >
> >  How should we regard the activity of the suicide bombers?
> >
> > Miroslav answers this question by asking another question:
> >
> > Are they(terrorists) targeting us because they are envious of our life
> > style? Suicide bombers - why do they hate life?
> >
> > Well, Miroslav, I realy don't know, nor quite frankly do I care.
> >
> > For two reasons:
> >
> > 1)Making the targeting of civilians one's principal (not to say only)
> > method of warfare is wrong. Period. Sept 11 has shown us where the logic
of
> > this kind of actions will lead.
> >
> > 2) The first reason should suffice.
> >
> > However, leaving aside all consideration of morality,this tactic is sure
> > fire way to guarentee that the Palestinians never have a homeland.
> >
> > Before this Intifada began, Israel had a government that favored leaving
the
> > occupied territories. Poll after  poll showed that a majority of
Israelis
> > favored ending the settlements, if that was the price of peace.
> >
> > Even if this were not the case, Israel would eventually have had to do
so.In
> > our modern era, no nation can occupy the territory and control the lives
of
> > another people against their will for ever.
> >
> > That being said,the suicide bombings don't take place in the occupied
> > territories.They take place in Israel proper.
> >
> > No matter how many times one hears  that the goal of the Paletinians is
to
> > see resolution 242 enforced, who would believe them ? What guarantee is
> > there that if Israel withdrew from all of the land it conquered in 1967
this
> > stuff would stop? What would keep terrorists from using a newly free
> > Palestine as a platform for further attacks? Without the assurance that
> > withdrawal will bring peace,what incentive does Israel have to pull out
of
> > the territories?
> >
> > Secondly,as even the members of this list would have to admit,only the
US
> > can broker a settlement between the Israel and the Palestinians. Who can
> > anyone  believe that the US will really have any interest in doing so as
> > long as the Palestinians don't clearly renounce the favored  tactic of
Osama
> > Bin Laden?
> >
> > Given all that, I do not think that anybody does the Palestinians a good
> > service by trying to "understand suicide bombers" In fact, it might even
be
> > a greater act of friendship for the allies of the Palestinians in Europe
and
> > elsewhere to try to explain to them that this kind of action makes it
almost
> > inevitable that they will never will be able to acheive their legitimate
> > aspirations.
> >
> > One last thing about this:Here is a standard line one hears after a
suicide
> > bombing,whether it be from Saudi diplomats, or idiots like Robert Fisk:
> >
> > Look how desperate a 16 year old must be to blow themselves up in this
way.
> >
> > Really.
> >
> > What about the Colombine killers? What about the child warrriors in
Sierre
> > Leone. What about Tamil Tiger suicide bombers?
> >
> >  Why don't we have a little 'understanding' for their causes as well?
> >
> > Young people can do some pretty horrid things,and some of them don't
even
> > need to live under occupation to do so (witness yesterday's massacre in
a
> > school yard in Germany).
> >
> > In this particular case ,however,(and in the case of Sierre Leone and
the
> > actions of Tamil Tigers who,I believe invented this horrid tactic), the
> > young people didn't carry out their action on their own. Somebody built
the
> > bomb.Somebody planned the action. And the adults who did so should know
> > better than to believe that these actions will lead to anybody's
liberation.
> >
> > The same should also be true for all those who tell us that these
bombing
> > help us understand how oppressed the Palestinians are. This is a hell of
a
> > price to pay for a sociology lesson,especially one that does nothing to
> > bring the Palestinains closer to freedom.
> >
> > Steve
>
> --
> __________________________________________________________________________
> "Of course I lie to people. But I lie altruistically -- for our mutual
good."
>
>
>


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