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Nmherman on Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:20:01 +0200 (CEST)

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[Nettime-bold] http://artforum.com/talkback/reply=4117&previewed=1


As to Adorno: he seems to be having a renaissance right now (a lot of academics, state side, seem to be talking about him again and there seem to be a lot of new publications of his work). I love his book on Alban Berg. At one point he does talk about a physicalness in the music (it's been a while since I read it, I'll have to take a look again. Thanks for the reminder).

One note: I was actually talking about seeing Ives in the paintings of Neo Rauch, a contemporary german painter, not of Old man Rauchenberg (although I like the connotations, especially with his box paintings). Also while your right about my "seeing" Xenakis, I was talking about the beauty of his written compositions (I think many hand written scores, in general, are some of the most beautiful drawings around...).

Nice ideas. What else you got?

Re: Music and Art

by stashcrow, 07.18.02 11:17 am

One more: To be honest, I've not got much more than 5 minutes into Stockhausen's Helicopter suite. Just the experience of looking at the CD, with Irivne Arditi in the cockpit of a helicopter, and his little 'fro poking out from the headphones and his grin and violin in hand...then pushing play, only to hear the engines slowly whirring up to speed, was enough to set me guffawing. I'll check out the piece you recommended (I really like his short piano works with his "breaths" and "Hups" and "haws"). How about Schwitter's "Ur sonata'. Love it (especially while looking at the sequence of photos of his facial expressions while performing the piece).

Re: Music and Art

by stashcrow, 07.18.02 11:26 am

Ohh ya, and as to the question of painting and music be in a ghetto of sorts: Well most of the greatest culture comes out of the ghettos (I know that's not quite what you meant...). People will always gripe about how old and weary painting is and how easy it is to laud. I say: "the King is dead? Long live the King!"

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.18.02 08:06 pm

Once again we may verify that ignorance is quite daring (oh my what a shame this is embarrassing) I didn’t know Neo Rauch at all. (now I discovered he has been discussed here in April and saw a few samples too). By coincidence I was thinking of Ives overlapping tunes and Rauschenberg assemblages. And about Xenakis you didn’t mean synestesy too. Yes, his computer generated diagrams are amazing and it’s interesting that he seldom used electronic sounds preferring orchestral textures. Of course there’s this Pavillion in France too - architecture made through musical concepts (how is it called…) Ligeti’s scores are particularly interesting (booklet of Piano Concerto in teldec) since he really moves in sheet space as if in a ‘art’ support without any ‘art’ purpose – but the result is disconcerting.
I guess I get your “grammar” thing. I’m concerned about how procedures (my grammar) may result in offering a (dubious, uncanny) way back to it’s origins; a bit 70’s maybe but, who cares, it’s my way (not Sinatra’s). I don’t find nothing ‘quixotic’ in working with images – well maybe a bit, but isn’t there the verve? I like D.Quixote too. I’m not an ‘absolute’ abstract painter. I don’t even bother sending you this caricature of my work: Imagine Markus Lupertz mixed with Jonathan Lasker laced with a few ice cubes of Italian Renaissance. (Happily nobody will read this). I’m not being kind saying that; I think the desire of representation keeps things working if one eye of morality keeps wide open.
This is working pretty. I must take a look at Vito Acconci that I confess I never paid much attention. Besides that Hanna Darboven and Bob Smithson's are unknown to me, so I’ll search at once. Good news about Adorno. But do you know where goes the path, I mean, are there any followers or critics?
I find Cage’s watercolours and etchings very fresh but I seldom listen to his recorded music. I agree. I think his music works are quite ‘absolute’ and have offered an undeniable contribution to music progress but listening is tough. (Duchamp has written a few pieces – unlistenable of course – working with chance too a few years before him) – By the way if you didn’t yet, you must search an article called ‘Music of the spheres’ - Make a search with these key words. The guy makes a purist approach to music through Pythagoras and other greeks and charges over Cage, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, etc. saving only Adams and a few others just in the name of consonance and tonality! It’s worth reading: in spite of that it has a historic survey quite interesting and well articulated. A chairman of… whatever. Back to Cage: It’s not easy. Ah, I prefer his percussion pieces.
Thanks for Schwitter's "Ur sonata”. I misunderstood before and I must look for it – I never heard.
This was just a quick post. I must organize a few ideas too; I guess I'm not recalling a lot of things I have to report. Great talk.

Re: Music and Art

by maxherman, 07.18.02 09:57 pm

In painting I don't know about sound=sight. I believe Wittgenstein has issues with that, the "whole gesammkunstverk". For some reason I always found Caspar Friedrich to have a sound, and a smell even, if I paid attention....

In network art NN is renowned for her software, considered the best for streaming audiovisual composition. She is very, very serious on the music history list you mention Rinaldo; I mean, she often talks about the names on it.

I'm not personally, artistically, musical in my work or composition. (Mondrian is supposedly, though I find that weirdly debatable.) I do of course like music and Stockhausen.

Synesthesia and a link with music:


www.geocities.com/genius-2000/NOWcartoons.html [link #3, P.Juce with music I think]

Best Beethoven Symphony: the Third in E Major!

Re: Music and Art

by tagent, 07.18.02 11:51 pm

"Doesn't your dog deserve ALPO?"

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.19.02 09:18 am

Thrilling experience about Caspar Friedrich: I think you mean pure sound maybe - and smell (!) - but there are a lot of ‘fin-de-siècle’ composers that will surely make sense too: Richard Strauss, Mahler, early Schoenberg…
Now this thing that I’m truly curious about if it’s like you said: “network art NN is renowned for her software…” – Sorry, doesn’t ring a bell; is there a url or a link you might send or clarify anyhow? – I’m out. I notice you already mentioned it in “Is love a therapy” topic.
Witty links (should we infer here some, er, smell too?) – Smart Bot is weird and intriguing. I’m thinking sending one too maybe.
I prefer Beethoven’s popular 7th maybe because I whistle it since I was a kid but lately I’ve been listening more to his chamber. Have you tried ‘Grand Fugue’ ? (originally last movement of Op133) – It’s almost unbelievable it was written in 19th cent.

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.19.02 09:23 am

Please correct: Grand Fugue is actually Op.133 and it was originally the last movement of Op.130

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.20.02 07:52 pm

Hey Max Herman what’s that NN stuff about? Should I know? Or are you making competition with tagent?

Re: Music and Art

by Domenico Olivero, 07.21.02 04:37 am

music is the immediately art... i little beep of music is sufficient for remember all life... particular moment of life... in the art is very difficult this relationship...

arte e musica:
Marinetti, Munari, Berio, Nono, Galimberti...

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.21.02 06:54 am

Hi Domenico,
This immediate character you mention has surely helped in keeping music critics and composers interested in the medium (‘materia prima’) itself instead of sticking to spectacle as in visual arts.
Hey! Marinetti and the futurists (and Schwitters now I recall too) was a great suggestion! And it led me to Luigi Russolo at once (L’arte dei Rumori). I know it’s not easy but do you know if there are recordings of any of this? Galimberti I don’t’t know at all; can you give a clue; as well as Munari, you surely don’t mean the designer.
This led me to Fluxus. Do you know any serious composer involved in Fluxus?


Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.21.02 09:15 am

Polilely unanswered but discovered thanks to apparent female persuasion, NN mystery was revealed. Any engine search on "Netochka Nezvanova" will make your chin fall. People may not know who was Schoenberg but they’ll have an idea about Netochka Nezvanova. Anyway,
is maybe worth reading (I read in a rush). Poetic, hardly informing, sophisticated, chic and maybe it links somewhere worth. At least she likes Mozart Piano Concertos. How pop. Has she heard the quartets? Cage is mentioned too and, by coincidence, Russolo. The other names in my list, Max, seem, to the moment, obscure to this, er, “capitalist anti-capitalist”. But I’m still patiently searching.

Re: Music and Art

by rinaldo, 07.21.02 07:45 pm

Sorry for my bad English; I meant 'feminine' persuasion and not 'female' persuasion

Re: Music and Art

by maxherman, 07.22.02 02:45 am

Hey Rinaldo, I can't say I have the perfect NN link. She's real though. Her music is considered real good, she writes in an episodic weird manner, and not being a sound (!) artist myself I couldn't go too much further into details. She publishes academic papers on sexual selection and higher math for hype's sakes.

Anyway, I do believe music relates to art, I certainly relate them, or my brainpan does for me as I expose it to both in a Denver-Omelette kind of cuisine.

NN says that people should not be eating meat, nor should men be wearing balls. So, she's extreme in some rhetorical ways and byways.

The reason I like the 3rd Eroica is for its historical provenance: written for Napoleon but revoked in anger and renamed the Heroic. I like the music but also the story, say the literary qualities of the work as I hear it.

Nabokov said, correct me if I'm wrong, that "all art aspires to the condition of music." I am not so in agreement with this, nor with a certain category of artists whom take the musical over the narrative a little too easily, superficially let's say for manners.

NN I like because she is not at all superficial about literature—viz. the name. If anyone reads the real actual novel and its story because of NN, she'll have earned her wings. Not that she needs any.

I see the conflicts between literature and music more directly in my own work, my studies, explorations, etc. Music and art and literature do all interrelate, but how? Well that's why we get the big bucks I guess.

Thanks for the Smart Bot praise, I'm no draftsman but I couldn't be more proud of the last panel. "A+", says the little professor that lives in my mouth. I think the other NOWcartoon "P.Juce" has some sound along with it, not sure.

My way of relating music to art, and staying off the bullshit cart, is by focusing on genre—bringing in the history. (I also do this in my own practicing of art which is a writing/art hybrid thing about rhetoric and history.) Why was Rossini so beloved? Partly because the janitors were singing his songs too.

Re: Music and Art

by maxherman, 07.22.02 03:08 am

I'd say that NN is definitely a serious composer related to fluxus. She relates sound to it, I relate literature to it, I'd call myself "a serious writer related to fluxus" but it hasn't come up yet ha ha.

The web seems divided over Fluxus. one38.org would claim to have fluxus merit I think, if you asked the creator, who does sound, writing, and websites. I guess.

Fluxus is being reassessed. I'd be interested about fluxus and painting as well. Academically and in film (two genres in which I myself haved worked with tact and grace, I hope, at times) I feel I know roughly where film stands viz. Fluxus, i.e. Jonas Mekas and Anthology. In video there are Gary Hill and Bill Viola, and I try to argue sometimes my own piece "Video First Edition" is as good as, i.e. as worth seeing, as some of their stuff, fluxus-wise I mean. It's not so hard on the eyes, at albalux.com/g2k/pv, stills and text only.

And don't get me wrong, I'd never put all my eggs in one fluxus like some people seem to do.