www.nettime.org
Nettime mailing list archives

Re: <nettime> In Defence Of ... DIGEST (2 X messages; rob lucas, porculu
nettime's dialetical materialist on 4 Mar 2001 05:53:57 -0000


[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

Re: <nettime> In Defence Of ... DIGEST (2 X messages; rob lucas, porculus)


+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*

MSG #1

From: "Robert Lucas" <staedlerjr {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: <nettime> In Defence of a Modest Proposal
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:09:20 -0000

> >"The Napoleonic grandeur of radical thought from Marx to Debord has an
> >intrinsically anti-democratic cast. Its a question of making the masses
> >into a tool for a mission not of their making."


I'd just like to chip in a few little quotes from Marx's "Political
Indifferentism" to the general debate about Marx's apparent intellectual
flights of totalitarianism...:

     "Workers should even less desire that, as happens in the United States of
America, the state whose budget is swollen by what is taken from the working
class should be obliged to give primary education to workers' children; for
primary education is not complete education. It is better that working men and
working women should not be able to read or write or do sums than that they
should receive education from a teacher in a school run by the state.  It is
far better that ignorance and a working day of sixteen hours should debase the
working classes than that eternal principles should be violated."

     "In expectation, therefore, of this famous social liquidation, the working
class must behave itself in a respectable manner, like a flock of well-fed
sheep.... and offer itself up uncomplainingly as cannon fodder."

     Did anyone fail to see the irony in the two above quotes? To make it a
little clearer, Marx goes on to declare such attitudes insults, and spends the
rest of the article refuting them; they are written as parodies of "the
apostles of political indifferentism", the "doctrinaire bourgeois and displaced
gentlemen" who would subordinate the real need for progress for the working
class to "eternal principles." Marxism wasn't the tragic cramming of a society
into an abstract ideal that would never work; it was an attempt to do
completely the opposite- to view realistically and scientifically the necessary
movement of the working class within capitalism; it wasn't a forcing of the
workers towards a messy future: it was a statement of what would necessarily
develop- for Marx the workers were to be a moving force in history infinitely
more than he ever was- he assumed the position of scientific observer... It's
pretty obvious really from a basic knowledge of Marxism, and should hardly need
going over again and again and again....

     Find a little totalitarianism in Marx himself if you're anxious to really
find it- that'll be a lot more interesting if you manage it.

Cheers,
Rob Lucas.

+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*

MSG #2

From: "porculus" <porculus {AT} wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: <nettime> In Defence of Cultural Studies
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:23:05 +0100

> I've been amused that all the recent contributions seem to assume that Marx
> was opposed social democracy. Wrong Marx was (literally) the founding
> father of this movement. One daughter helped to set up the British Labour
> party, another was involved in the precursor of the French Socialist party
> and his closest comrades created the German Social Democratic party.

excepted all these 'three daugthter of their mother' (thanks pierre louys) have
had to denied mum..and don't put arse over tits the karlos' famous original
holy trinity's parabe : marxismus is the daughter of philosophy (german one)
economics (uk) & politic (french), all fake gods apart karlos hardly critiqued
alone i.e. without their express ternary presence. and yes if the social
democracy have had a marxist parenthesis (german first) it's just for a sweet
reduce toward the genotyp of their parents, aka nationalismus: lenine &
trostsky weren't ever ever wrong.  it's europe and so shy transvaluation of
nationalism that allow you to just forget it a bit, enuf for the labor party &
french socialist make them laugh each other about their respective disgusting
hyprocrisie. funny for instance to see madcow coming from a deliberated
thatcher's plan for making ever dependant england 'a net flesh exporter' as a
tacky but also poisoning remake of the opium war (here thatcher made a 'labor
project') funny to see french politician giving lessons of social justice with
banknotes sticking out their pocket as danton funny to see german politics on
moral & ethical jugement as..well germany is back. and i say all that with a
great satisfaction in regard to the usan & asian misery in political
life..except i know also so much money was given after ww2 by usan for
'unmarxised' to the core if needed till all european social democrate
groups..just imagine the uk pension funds accept the usan's 'just best
investment' choice.. haa excuse me if i don't remember all about marx, cause i
am not an usual..except one or two things as he made of mathematic his hobbies
and wrote huge boring things but he had even thought time to employ for
foundness for his maid, cigars he smoked more than castro, and had above all in
his small and better book for me, his crual sense of humor and his incredibly
vivid sharp view of the situations..his wife less, but after all according to
each feeling his/er marx and to her too. but here no need to use of his deluxe
sagacity, it just sticks as a sore thumb


#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net