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<nettime> a musical tribute digest v.2 [recktenwald x3, cramer, tallmo]
nettime's_licensee on Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:19:34 +0200 (CEST)


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<nettime> a musical tribute digest v.2 [recktenwald x3, cramer, tallmo]


Re: <nettime> Why artists should be using Ogg Vorbis (instead of mp3)
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
     Florian Cramer <paragram {AT} gmx.net>
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
     Karl-Erik Tallmo <tallmo {AT} nisus.se>

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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:27:10 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Why artists should be using Ogg Vorbis (instead of mp3)

> Imagine, E-Mail wouldn't be an open standard, but a patented technology
> for which the rights owner charges everyone who programs or distributes
> an E-Mail server program (like sendmail) and everyone who uses E-Mail
> for commercial/professional purposes (like journalists sending their
> manuscripts to newspapers). 

Yeah, this is my point. They are bluffing.

They "own" the technology but only when it comes to selling programms.

The idea of "ownership over a whole technology" is nice, but not real.

Wouldnt take them to serious. And you could also argue, that they
are estopped from claims against blade etc after they released sources.

Bluff, bluff, bluff, same story like etoy and etoys or Leonardo.

However it is in detail, encoders are not content. Reminds of
Microsofts whining over "illegal DivX movies"...The movies may be made
with an illegal programm but they are perfectly legal.

Well, the internet is something like 7 years old, mp3 is maybe 5 years
in general use. We could change codecs with a mouseclick. But all the
music that is allready encoded...

But maybe I am biased with my intra.b.lab.net/~uzs106 thing. 

And anyway, it is good to know that there are alternatives. 
Like Batamax ;-)

Does the OGG Vobis player display mp3 too ? Does it display m3u filelists? 
Netscape, Edit, Preferences, Navigator, Applications, thats where the
music happens. 

Best,

H.

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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:16:47 +0200
From: Florian Cramer <paragram {AT} gmx.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Why artists should be using Ogg Vorbis (instead of mp3)

Am Mon, 27.Aug.2001 um 17:27:10 +0200 schrieb Heiko Recktenwald:
 
> Yeah, this is my point. They are bluffing.
> 
> They "own" the technology but only when it comes to selling programms.

No, when it comes to selling services (like streaming) and content. A
much more profitable scheme. Websites like mp3.com, manufacturers of
hardware mp3 players etc. all pay royalities to Fraunhofer/Thomson. It
would be interesting to hear whether the companies who developed other
proprietary audio codecs (like WMA, LiquidAudio, RealAudio, AC3) also
pay Fraunhofer/Thomson for crossing their patents and "IP". 

> Bluff, bluff, bluff, same story like etoy and etoys or Leonardo.

No, because - unlike etoy and Leonardo -, there is no chance that your
patent-/intellectual propetry-infringing use of mp3 holds up on court.
Their license itself is not a bluff. You run the permanent risk of being
sued. Fraunhofer/Thomson might not be overly eager suing people who
infringe their licenses right now, but that might change any time.
There are companies like Rambus who as a matter of fact base their
revenue stream on patents, "intellectual property" and suing other
parties who supposedly infringe it. 

> However it is in detail, encoders are not content. Reminds of
> Microsofts whining over "illegal DivX movies"...The movies may be made
> with an illegal programm but they are perfectly legal.

Not, afaik,  under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the U.S. (as
far as they involve "circumvention" devices). 
 
> Does the OGG Vobis player display mp3 too ? Does it display m3u filelists? 
> Netscape, Edit, Preferences, Navigator, Applications, thats where the
> music happens. 

On Windows, you simply install the Ogg Vorbis codec as a plugin for
WinAMP. No new player software needed.

Florian

-- 
http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~cantsin/homepage/
http://www.complit.fu-berlin.de/institut/lehrpersonal/cramer.html
GnuPG/PGP public key ID 3200C7BA 
"c u in he][l][avan" (mez, _Viro.Logic Condition][ing][ 1.1_)

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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:30:10 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Why artists should be using Ogg Vorbis (instead of mp3)

> No, when it comes to selling services (like streaming) and content. A
> much more profitable scheme. Websites like mp3.com, manufacturers of
> hardware mp3 players etc. all pay royalities to Fraunhofer/Thomson. It

But on any realistic legal grounds ? As far as mp3.com is concerned.
Hardware chips, this was mp3 in the beginning. The design of chips,
some ITT factory in the south of germany. Maybe there are such chips in
use ?

Anyway, artists should play with Ogg. Not worse than Real.

H.

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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:34:06 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Why artists should be using Ogg Vorbis (instead of mp3)

> > However it is in detail, encoders are not content. Reminds of
> > Microsofts whining over "illegal DivX movies"...The movies may be made
> > with an illegal programm but they are perfectly legal.
> 
> Not, afaik,  under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the U.S. (as
> far as they involve "circumvention" devices). 

Well lets make it clear, the content were private scenes from turtle beach

> On Windows, you simply install the Ogg Vorbis codec as a plugin for
> WinAMP. No new player software needed.

Unix ?

Artists want to play with Ogg.

H.

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Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:41:31 +0200
From: Karl-Erik Tallmo <tallmo {AT} nisus.se>
Subject: Re: <nettime> a musical tribute digest [cramer vs recktenwald x2]

>Quoted from http://www.mp3.com/news/095.html :
>
>>    Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>>    As you may know, both the Fraunhofer Institute and THOMSON have done
>>    important work to develop MPEG Layer-3 audio compression (before and
>>    after it became part of the MPEG standards). This work has resulted
>>    in many inventions and several patents, covering the MPEG Layer-3
>>    standard.
>>
>>    From your publications and your web-site we learn that you
>>    distribute and/or sell decoders and/or encoders that use the MPEG
>>    Layer-3 standard.
>>
>>    Our files do not show that you have a valid license agreement with
>>    us. This means that the products infringe the patent rights of
>  >   Fraunhofer and THOMSON.

>snip

>>    We look forward to hearing from you soon.
>>
>>    Best regards,
>>    - Martin
>>  
>>    ---
>>    Martin Sieler
>>    Fraunhofer IIS-A, Audio & Multimedia
>>    email: sir {AT} iis.fhg.de
>>    phone: +49 9131 776-610
>>    fax: +49 9131 776-699
>>    www: http://www.iis.fhg.de/amm/
>  >--


All this sounds as an echo from '94, when Unisys and Compuserve tried 
to charge developers and end-users (or rather end-distributors) of 
gif files for the use of their patent of the compression algorithm 
LZW which they had developed. Back then, creative netizens developed 
an alternative algorithm within a couple of hours, that was supposed 
to be very easy to convert all the gif files into - if necessary. I 
think it was called GEF. Unisys/Compuserve backed off then - at least 
from some of their demands. Maybe this will happen here too...


Karl-Erik Tallmo


-- 

  _________________________________________________________________

    KARL-ERIK TALLMO, Swedish writer, lecturer

    MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com
  _________________________________________________________________

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