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Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights [6x]
nettime's digest on Tue, 4 May 2004 19:37:05 +0200 (CEST)


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Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights [6x]



Table of Contents:

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>                                          

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>                                             

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>                                          

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>                                          

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>                                             

   Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)                           
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>                                          



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:34:51 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Hi,

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Benjamin Geer wrote:

> Aliette Guibert wrote:
> > Around 150 former Italian activists, condemned in Italy for actions linked
> > with the political and social upheaval of the 1970s
>
> Translation: nutters who believed that murdering politicians and random
> civilians would make them popular.

Italy seems to be special. Saw a piece in TV about those arrests in the
school in Geneva, that were discused here too, during this summit.
Incredible. A state of war. Brutal violence against people in their
sleeping bags, just violence.......




H.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 23:34:38 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Heiko Recktenwald wrote:
> Italy seems to be special. Saw a piece in TV about those arrests in the
> school in Geneva, that were discused here too, during this summit.
> Incredible. A state of war. Brutal violence against people in their
> sleeping bags, just violence.......

Things like that have happened in many other European countries.  But 
what's really strange is that the same leftists who deplore Berlusconi's 
attempts to gain impunity are perfectly happy to grant the same impunity 
to a confessed murderer, Cesare Battisti.

Some quick translations from _La Repubblica_:

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Cesare Battisti] was given a life sentence by the appeals court of 
Milan for personally killing the jeweler Torreggiani and injuring his 
son, who is now paraplegic, and for the killing of a prison officer, 
Santoro, and of an agent of the DIGOS [Italian general investigative and 
special operations division], Campagna.  He was also part of the 
commando that burst into the headquarters of the MSI [a right-wing 
political party] in Mestre, killing a member of the party, Sabbadin."[1]

Alberto Torreggiani, today in his forties, who was paralysed in 1979 in 
the ambush in which his father was killed: 'My life was interrupted 25 
years ago, all my plans, my ambitions, my dreams were crushed that 
afternoon.  I don't hate Battisti, but it's fair that he should pay. 
Politics is one thing, criminal acts are another.'[2]

Only two years ago, [Battisti] declared that he accepted 'the political 
and military responsibilities of what the 1970s were in Italy', adding, 
to be entirely clear: 'I declare myself guilty and I am proud of it.'[3]

[1] 
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/l/sezioni/cronaca/brigaterosse3/battisti/battisti.html

[2] 
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/l/sezioni/cronaca/brigaterosse3/scarce/scarce.html

[3] Reprinted in _Courrier International_, no. 697, 11-17 March 2004.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 05:28:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

> Things like that have happened in many other European countries.  But

Not really ;-)


> what's really strange is that the same leftists who deplore Berlusconi's
> attempts to gain impunity are perfectly happy to grant the same impunity
> to a confessed murderer, Cesare Battisti.

Not really ;-)

Best, H.

>
> Some quick translations from _La Repubblica_:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [Cesare Battisti] was given a life sentence by the appeals court of
> Milan for personally killing the jeweler Torreggiani and injuring his
> son, who is now paraplegic, and for the killing of a prison officer,
> Santoro, and of an agent of the DIGOS [Italian general investigative and
> special operations division], Campagna.  He was also part of the
> commando that burst into the headquarters of the MSI [a right-wing
> political party] in Mestre, killing a member of the party, Sabbadin."[1]
>
> Alberto Torreggiani, today in his forties, who was paralysed in 1979 in
> the ambush in which his father was killed: 'My life was interrupted 25
> years ago, all my plans, my ambitions, my dreams were crushed that
> afternoon.  I don't hate Battisti, but it's fair that he should pay.
> Politics is one thing, criminal acts are another.'[2]
>
> Only two years ago, [Battisti] declared that he accepted 'the political
> and military responsibilities of what the 1970s were in Italy', adding,
> to be entirely clear: 'I declare myself guilty and I am proud of it.'[3]
>
> [1]
> http://www.repubblica.it/2003/l/sezioni/cronaca/brigaterosse3/battisti/battisti.html
>
> [2]
> http://www.repubblica.it/2003/l/sezioni/cronaca/brigaterosse3/scarce/scarce.html
>
> [3] Reprinted in _Courrier International_, no. 697, 11-17 March 2004.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ben
>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 05:44:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

To be more precise:

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Heiko Recktenwald wrote:

> > Things like that have happened in many other European countries.  But
>
> Not really ;-)

The only case similar in quality is the killing of arabs in Paris in the
sixties after a demonstration. There were minor overreactions of police
forces during antinuclear demonstrations, the most known "war" sofar was
the Plogoff case in France too, one of the most beautifull spots in
Bretany, btw... But in Geneva, it wasnt during any riots, the peoples were
in their sleeping bags and it was just symbolic. Blood spreading,
absolutely useless violence, just extralegal corporal punishment of the
most extreme kind of, as far as we know, innocent people. If you see that
black underwear was used as a prove later.....
 > >
> > what's really strange is that the same leftists who deplore Berlusconi's
> > attempts to gain impunity are perfectly happy to grant the same impunity
> > to a confessed murderer, Cesare Battisti.
>
> Not really ;-)

A confessed murder, well, this is history, like the confessed murderers in
Poland and elsewhere, who evicted major parts of the population after WW
2. 30 years is enough.


H.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 08:31:05 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

Heiko Recktenwald wrote:
> A confessed murder, well, this is history, like the confessed murderers in
> Poland and elsewhere, who evicted major parts of the population after WW
> 2. 30 years is enough.

Do you therefore also believe that, for example, it was wrong to 
extradite Klaus Barbie from Bolivia and put him on trial in France in 
1987, 40 years after the fact?

Ben


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:04:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Civil and human Rights (from indymedia)

> > A confessed murder, well, this is history, like the confessed murderers in
> > Poland and elsewhere, who evicted major parts of the population after WW
> > 2. 30 years is enough.
>
> Do you therefore also believe that, for example, it was wrong to
> extradite Klaus Barbie from Bolivia and put him on trial in France in
> 1987, 40 years after the fact?

Beautifull question, this is really another topic.

Those were crimes against humanity and two countries were involved.

Here we have the question if we want peace in Italy.


Best, H.


------------------------------



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