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<nettime> Negri with Ballestrini... [Recktenwald, Geer 2x]
nettime's ()" <nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net> on Wed, 26 May 2004 02:42:26 +0200 (CEST)


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<nettime> Negri with Ballestrini... [Recktenwald, Geer 2x]



Table of Contents:

   Re: <nettime> Re: Heiko's hammer - ... to Battisti to Agamben and Pantani       
     Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>                                          

   Re: <nettime> Negri with Ballestrini  to Battisti and on amnesty                
     Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>                                             

   Re: <nettime> Re: Heiko's hammer - ... to Battisti to Agamben and Pantani       
     Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>                                             



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Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:18:40 +0200 (CEST)
From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106 {AT} uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Re: Heiko's hammer - ... to Battisti to Agamben and Pantani

Dear Martin, thanks!

On Mon, 24 May 2004, Martin Hardie wrote:

> I think Heiko has hit the nail on the head - amnesty like extradition is
> not a judicial question but a political question. It is a question of
> the exception - the archetypicial question of legal matters in these
> times in which we live. It is a question of law which is not Law but
> carries with it the force of Law.  This to me is the thing that Ben

Ok.

> refuses to acknowledge - that we live in a time not of law but of
> exception where what is Law is not what is handed down to us by rational

Wouldnt say that. Didnt think about it.
The amnesty/law question is eternal ;-)
Maybe Ben understands it, if he thinks about the governor of some
US state, when he changes death penalty to something else, he is above the
law.
Or the policeman, who gives him a ticket for driving to fast or not, a
similar situation.

H.

> judges and tradition but what works in the society of the fear and
> spectacle (sorry for all these allusions to other texts but I think the
> shorthand makes the point).


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Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:15:09 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Negri with Ballestrini  to Battisti and on amnesty

Heiko Recktenwald wrote:
> It is not a judge, who decides on amnesty or not, it is the head of state,
> at least here, maybe in Italy too.

That makes no difference.  The problem is this: how should he decide who 
will receive amnesty and who will not?  Does it just depend on whether 
he's in a good mood that day?  On whether his wife thinks the convicted 
man is cute, as in the song by Barbara?

> But not by judging only the case but also the surroundings. Civil war or
> not, what is a civil war in a civilised state? This case is long ago, it
> was political, it is time to make peace. You can execute law forever,
> but in certain situations other aspects of civilisation get more
> important.

Those sound suspiciously like attempts at rational justification.  Are 
you sure you want to continue maintaining that amnesty has nothing to do 
with rationality?

'It was political': are you saying that amnesty should always be granted 
for political murders?  Battisti is accused of walking into the office 
of a political party and opening fire.  Do you think that that's the 
sort of thing anyone should be allowed to do?  Do you think that the man 
who killed Swedish politician Anna Lindh last year should automatically 
receive amnesty, because his victim was a politician?

If there's a civil war going on in my country and I'm a political 
activist, does that make it OK for me to kill the local jeweller, even 
though I have absolutely no political reason for doing so?

'This case is long ago': how do you decide how long is long enough? 
Klaus Barbie was extradited by France from Bolivia over 40 years after 
his crimes, which were indeed very political, and which were committed 
at a time when a civil war was going on in France.  What's the difference?

'It is time to make peace': what exactly do you mean by 'make peace'? 
As far as I can tell, there is no war going on in Italy at the moment. 
What does Battisti's case have to do with peace today?

> Amnesty or not is a serious topic!

All the more reason not to leave it up to the arbitrary whims of one 
individual, whether he's a judge or a head of state.  All the more 
reason to have clear rules for determining when someone should receive 
amnesty, and when they should not.  Those rules may be political or 
legal, but it is essential for them to exist.

>>In this case, I am suggesting that the hearts of many leftists support
>>Battisti mainly because they see him as belonging to their group.  The
> 
> But this would be ok!

Suppose the president is corrupt, but he belongs to your party.  Is it 
OK to lie to protect him?

Suppose your friend tells you that he intends to kill 5,000 random 
people tomorrow morning, because extraterrestrials told him to.  Do you 
keep quiet about it?

Do you really believe that your responsibility to your clan is more 
important than any other moral responsibility?

Ben


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:23:23 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <ben {AT} socialtools.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Re: Heiko's hammer - ... to Battisti to Agamben and Pantani

Martin Hardie wrote:
> This to me is the thing that Ben 
> refuses to acknowledge - that we live in a time not of law but of 
> exception where what is Law is not what is handed down to us by rational 
> judges and tradition but what works in the society of the fear and 
> spectacle (sorry for all these allusions to other texts but I think the 
> shorthand makes the point).

So I ask you yet again: exactly what are you proposing?  Unconditional 
amnesty for everyone from now on?  Are you ready to swear that for the 
rest of your life, you will never speak out in favour of any 
investigation, trial or prosecution?  And if so, why didn't you say so 
before?  There have been so many spectacular trials in recent years.

It is easy to point out the flaws in our present legal systems.  It is 
more difficult to explain how we could make do without them.

Ben


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