Nettime mailing list archives

<nettime> Two percent of a Source camp... interview with Patrice Riemens
Frederick Noronha (FN) on Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:52:51 +0100 (CET)

[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

<nettime> Two percent of a Source camp... interview with Patrice Riemens

Two percent of a Source camp... interview with Patrice Riemens

By Frederick Noronha

"We are two percent of this camp," Patrice Riemens
<patrice {AT} xs4all.nl> whispered, almost conspiratorially, as we
walked down to the beach. Patrice was referring to the Africa
Source II[1] event, we were part of on the scenic-but-isolated 
island of Kalangala, in the midst of Lake Victoria, Uganda.

        I've known Patrice for years. Our first meeting was odd. He
        introduced himself at one of those annual, year-end Goanetter
        gettogethers. I think it was at the Taj Aguada, and around

Just another lost tourist, I thought to myself then. But
Patrice was deeper than I realised. And his encounter with me
wasn't based on chance, but a deeper look at the Net, who was
posting often, and who was saying what.

We sat down for a chat, about FLOSSophy (a term Patrice has
invented, or popularised, or both... just as he has done with
the term Lusostalgia, sometimes wrongly attributed to me!).
In between, on his tent called the 'bazaar' at Africa Source
2, he narrated his long story.

Patrice explains: "I got into Goanet because I decided,
somewhere in the mid-nineties, that I wanted to go to India
again. I had spent 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993 -- four winters
-- in Calcutta. Air India then gave you three (free flight)
legs within India. As long as you flied Air India. Typically,
these flights left at timings like 2 am in the morning, from
Delhi to Calcutta. I was looking for a place where are social
movements active. I found Goa had a very lively social
movement scene."

The first address he recalls having visited was one with an
"Opposite Palacio de Goa" address. Yes, it could well be
Reggie Gomes, the priest-turned-NGO campaigner, who is still
involved with social groups here. "They had email. I got the
idea that Goa was not only nice beaches, but a lot of
socially active groups too. Some other names I recall from
those times are (environmentalist) Claude Alvares, (Physics
professor and Goa University's Net whizzard) Gurunandan

        So Patrice, now fifty something, went to the Goa University
        for some "telnet tourism". Remember, these the days of very
        limited internet access. Getting to your mail often meant a
        painfully slow, dial-up access via a Telnet, non-graphical

"I said, I'm from the University of Amsterdam. Can I have a
Telnet session? Some kind of Telnet tourism," he recalls.

:The Goa trip was remarkably fruitful. Not very much came out
of it (just then). But I also met (Fundacao Oriente's then
delegate in India) Paulo Varela Gomes. He was on the lookout
for a way to celebrate the 500th anniversary of Vasco da Gama
in a non-ofensive way. So we discussed the idea of a
cyberconference in Goa (which was followed-up for sometime,
but didn't actually happen)."

He recalls meeting up with Joseph "Boogie" Viegas, then one
of the pioneers of the Net in Goa, now based in Canada.
Patrice also remembers the Goanet [2] meeting at the Taj
Aguada, Candolim. Incidentally, that was the first time a
politician like Tomazinho Cardozo came in for our meeting,
and stress how serious a problem malaria was in coastal Goa.

Then, he recalls the Margao-based Dr Ivo Costa, a senior
citizen who got involved in the Net and whose family has been
in the wine business (Vinicola). "He's a big admirer of Bill
Gates," Patrice commented, in a camp meant to promote
Free/Libre and Open Source Software, the very antithesis of
proprietorial software, among non-profit organisations.

Q: Those were the days when you met someone via the internet
and he (and less often, she) became a great friend. That's
not so anymore. Would you agree?

Patrice says: "If you follow Goanet, it seems to be a Goan
feature to have 10 Goans, 12 opinions, and 16 enemies."

I asked Patrice about the Dutch role in Goa's history.

Says he: "There was a next-to-no role for the Dutch in Goa's
history. Maybe they came in as hipies (a few decades ago)."

But when we shifted attention to the Dutch blockade of Goa,
he commented: "That's part of the Dutch (attempted) kicking
the Portuguese out of Asia. The Dutch, at the apogee of their
power, in the mid-17th century, wanted to have an absolute
monopoly of navigation east of the Cape. I'm not really good
with dates. You can check these things with (Indo-Portuguese
historian Charles) Boxer."

"The Portuguese had done their thing; they were there, and
stable, but not expanding. The Dutch were expanding
massively. The English were not in the game at that point of
time. The British sea-borne empire kicked really in in the
18th century. In the east, Empires tended to be sea-borne in
the beginning. India as landmass came as a continental colony
of Britain only in the 19th century. Before that, it was the
control of the coast that mattered -- Madras, Bombay and
Calcutta... and a little land around it."

Talking to Patrice is fascinating. While he's impatient with
academic theories, his understanding of issues throws up new

He added, as we sat on the sand, and both were getting groggy
with sleep, specially him: "The legal theorist Grotus had two
theories -- the open seas, and closed seas. Open seas were
everywhere where the Dutch had no monopoly. Closed seas were
areas only for the Dutch. In the East and Baltic (for its
foreign trade) which were controlled by the Dutch."

"So the idea of the Dutch was to kick the Portuguese out
everywhere, allegedly for religious reasons, but mostly for
commercial reasons. They were quite successful, but not
completely. After some time, the English came and changed the
whole thing," he adds.

So does Patrice believe in the rise and fall of nations?
"It's not a belief, it's a fact. Who had heard of the US in
the 16th century," he laughs.

Patrice is a Dutch citizen, but a French speaker. Says he: "I
have been living in Holland for the largest part of my life,
which is 40 years. Always I've felt a bit of a foreigner in

He's a human geographer -- a term which not be popular in
academia in Asia, but is very much part of continental Europe. 

"Earlier I was much more involved in academics than I was
now. First I read Latin and Greek, and dropped out of it like
most people. After my BA in Georgaphy, I applied for a
Government of India scholarship at the Delhi School of
Echonomics. That was way back in 1980-81."

Patrice spent a little less than a year there, and "did not
study very much because I could not make sense of the
curricula". But he stayed on in India. 

A senior Indian official he spoke of his problems to said:
"We do not expect fine students to seriously study. We expect
them to travel all over India, and be exposed to the country.
Then when you go back home, you will become a goodwill
ambassador for India." Patrice stresses the word 'goodwill
ambassador', that explains his views on the subject.

He then did his M.Phil in Economics, and wrote about Indian
multinationals. Published in Holland in 1989, this is one of
the few texts that looks at the global operations of Third
World firms. 

At that time, the Amsterdam's department of geography was
divided into urban geography of Western countries, and rural
geography of non-Western countries. "At that time, I was
perhaps the only one advocating looking at cities in the
Third World. But that was not well taken at that time. The
consensus of the mainstream orthodoxy was that the Third
World was rural, and that cities were aberration," recalls

"My position was that the cities are there (existing in the
Third World), they are working, and we have to learn a lot...
from the Third World, just as the Third World can learn from
us. At some stage, after something like six years, I was more
or less kicked out from the geography department," he

Patrice was then with INDRA, Institute for Development
Research in Amsterdam, a rather applied research centre. It
was in the university, then independent, but an inter-faculty

"I was very happy there, doing serious research, and much
appreciated. Also was more useful because of my internet
connections. I switched form studying the squatters movement
(which was then very important in Amsterdam) to looking at
the hackers movement. In Amsterdam," he narrates.

"My political culture was in the squatting movement. I very
naturally passed over in the hackers movement, because I was
convinced the computers were the next frontier. I was right
(laughs). The funny thing is that many in the squatters'
movement did not see it. I've always been ahead of my time.
People who say things with most people disagree with are
often considered irritating and are shelved," says he. 

[1] http://www.tacticaltech.org/africasource2
[2] http://www.goanet.org
    Email contact: patrice at xs4all.nl
Frederick 'FN' Noronha  | http://del.icio.us/fredericknoronha
Saligao, Goa, India     | fred {AT} bytesforall.org
Independent Journalist  | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net