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<nettime> (a|uh) digest [x3: butt, whitener, leon]
nettime's_vapor_trail on Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:49:48 +0200 (CEST)


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<nettime> (a|uh) digest [x3: butt, whitener, leon]


Danny Butt <db {AT} dannybutt.net>
    Re: <nettime> Gender and You
"brian whitener" <iwaslike {AT} hotmail.com>
    wait, was that about sondheim?
leon <leon {AT} c6.org>
    RE: <nettime> Gender and You

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From: Danny Butt <db {AT} dannybutt.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Gender and You
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:39:40 +1300

Charles,

I  think most of what is useful for me to say about the issues is  
already on the table, but I should just clarify that having hovered  
around nettime for about a decade, I've seen a lot of Alan's work,  
and enjoyed some of it, and have at least some understanding of his  
project.

To reconfigure my earlier point, it's not that Alan hasn't *read* any  
feminism, so much as I find it bizarre that he can write something  
purporting to be a research finding about gender that makes no  
reference to contemporary feminist work in that area. To me it's  
difficult to "make a contribution" to a field if you don't  
acknowledge the work people are doing in it.  You're asserting that  
Alan's made that contribution, but I would believe that more if I  
heard it from people who have expertise in feminist philosophy and  
criticism (I don't put myself in that category, so I'm open to being  
set right).

Danny

On 14/10/2006, at 4:50 AM, Charles Baldwin wrote:

> By contrast, it's just incorrect to assert that Alan's problem is that he
> needs to go read up on feminism, as Danny Butt does in a recent  post
> (below). I think, in fairness, Danny Butt's post writes from unfamiliarity
> with Alan's work - or at least that's is my impression.  Alan's work *is*
> informed by a few decades of feminist philosophy and criticism (empirically
> the largest body of work on gender issues) and makes a contribution to that
> field and acknowledges that it exists.
 <...>

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From: "brian whitener" <iwaslike {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: wait, was that about sondheim?
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:17:50 -0500

i think the initial discussion having passed, what's really struck me is how 
the affair is now being framed in retrospect. that is, the affair is now 
referred to a "brou-ha-ha" -- instead of an actual discussion -- a term 
which casts the series of exchanges as something "less-than-serious." and 
this after kali went to great lengths to open a debate and discussion where 
there was room for exchange (which is something very difficult to do in 
online environments, in my experience). to me to refer to the exchange like 
this seems very condescending.

as well, people are signing their comments (which they oddly enough did not 
refrain from writing!) with the closing "flame on." from what i have read of 
the discussion, despite objectionable, sloppy, and disinterested thinking 
(flame intended), the responses have been anything but "flaming." either you 
want to continue the discussion or you don't.

in the end, i think the heart of the discussion, or what was interesting 
about it, had little to do with sondheim and everything to do with the list 
and the degree to which conservative explanations of phenomenon have become 
our default (read: non-critical) explanations of reality. which is one of 
the things that feminism intended to combat in the first place.

sincerely yours,
brian whitener

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From: leon <leon {AT} c6.org>
Subject: RE: <nettime> Gender and You
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 02:48:47 +0100

I never imagined that sex was that confusing
If alans ramblings started this thread I don't see why, they were either
poor porn or red rags that should be ignored
Sounds like a lot of agendas are being voiced for many reasons
Funny how after so much time and effort by all involved in sexual exchange
we still have little common ground.
Fuck sex lets art

www.c6.org/thedotmasters

leon the lurker

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