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<nettime> seymourgram [x2: scattered thoughts on green and black]
Benedict Seymour on Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:50:45 +0100 (CET)


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<nettime> seymourgram [x2: scattered thoughts on green and black]


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Benedict Seymour <ben {AT} kein.org>
     Re: <nettime> scattered thoughts on Obama's green empire and black
     Re: <nettime> scattered thoughts on Obama's green empire and black

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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:38:46 +0000
From: Benedict Seymour <ben {AT} kein.org>
Subject: Re: <nettime> scattered thoughts on Obama's green empire and black

Ahem, you are suggesting that *I* grow up? (I know you are too polite 
and euphemistically therapeutic in your discourse to do so, but reading 
between the lines...)

Someone more aggressive than I might suggest that it is *you*, and other 
believers in the Obama and New New Deal fairy tales, that should grow 
up. Obviously for you maturity is synonymous with reconciliation to the 
world as it is. If that's grown up, I'll take the relentless desire of 
the child for adulthood - the adulthood of the system, that is. Bearing 
in mind that 'growing up' is a highly politically loaded process, you 
could consider inverting your perspective: is it merely unresolved 
adolescent 'rebelliousness' (now there's a reified concept if I ever 
encountered one) that makes a 38 year old tetchy, or something about the 
over-ripeness of the world, the idiotism of the times, the regressive 
tendency of the era? Is it me or the world? Sorry if you didn't like my 
tone, but I suggest you consider the context in which it was raised 
(reread Mr Foti's email - he's the one advocating forced labour for the 
poor - that kind of thing tends to get me rather riled).

Also, if you think I'm aggressive, wait till you see what Obama has in 
store. And yes, it is quite possible that Obama will be more extreme a 
militarist and looter of the poor than even Bush - remember Bill 
'huggable' Clinton? Before he was kicked out for heinous oral sex crimes 
he had already put at least one simple minded black man to death and 
many many more white and black people in Somalia, among other places, 
died as a result of his newly gregarious imperialism - something he was 
in advance of would-be-insular Bush about. I don' have time to rehearse 
the countless other instances of Democrat aggression, but i hope names 
like Ray 'coffeecoloured Nola' Nagin and Lyndon 'Great society/ Vietnam 
escalation' Johnson will ring a few bells. Not all aggression has a 
nasty 'tone'; most of it likes to keep things as mellifluous and upful 
as possible. Meanwhile: aren't you tired of tolerating the infinitely 
rich and complex world that inflicts this conveyor belt of toxic 
redeemers on us all?

Finally, regarding kicking things over - obviously I wasn't writing a 
full programme for transition to communism when I typed that, but if it 
makes people who believe in a gradual progression back to the 1930s (not 
to mention the fast approaching neo-medievalness hoving into view behind 
it) think for a minute, I'm not quite so worried about the glib 
phraseology. Yes, indeed, capitalism as a system must be abolished, it's 
all or nothing, and I doubt that this process will be as smooth, for 
example, as getting Obama into power. On the other hand, I am no fan of 
violence (not cos it's wrong but cos most of the time it's the wrong 
strategy). I think perhaps revolution will be made by a broad social 
movement, the bigger, the less violent, even. Who knows. But the 
question is still slightly academic right now, unfortunately. All I 
think one can do is try and help such a movement along.

Thanks for your mail, hope you aren't too upset.

Ben.



Olja Petrovic wrote:

> Benedict Seymour wrote:
>> Are you on drugs? Three decades of free market theology are about to 
>> be ramified over the dead and unemployed bodies of black and white 
>> working class americans (not to mention whoever else the next round 
>> of wars take as their humanitarian aid victims). 
>
> And do you think that if the US election results were different,
> things would look better in this regard? I presume and hope
> you are not one of those people who think the worse things
> go the more the society will become aware of the problem
> (because the worse things become the worse the media
> situation tends to get, at least in my experience, and that
> doesn't favor awareness of the facts and problems).
 <...>

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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:54:55 +0000
From: Benedict Seymour <ben {AT} kein.org>
Subject: Re: <nettime> scattered thoughts on Obama's green empire and black

Hi again Olja
I read your mail rather fast - I do accept you are sincerely not trying 
to just tell me to grow up, and you - though I do not know you either - 
take a lot of trouble trying not to simply make a personal attack. But I 
think we can save some time here and concentrate on the salient fact 
that we have a SYSTEM that needs to go forward (by overcoming its 
limitations) or risk collapsing back into something more horrible, and 
less promising. Too much concern for politesse can get in the way of 
discussion as much as a brutal manner of discussing things can scare 
some people off - but, as I said, the brutality of what others are 
modestly proposing does make me angry. Can't apologise for that.
Thanks,
Ben

Olja Petrovic wrote:

> Benedict Seymour wrote:
>   
>> Are you on drugs? Three decades of free market theology are about to be 
>> ramified over the dead and unemployed bodies of black and white working 
>> class americans (not to mention whoever else the next round of wars take 
>> as their humanitarian aid victims). 
>
> And do you think that if the US election results were different, things
> would look better in this regard? I presume and hope you are not one of
> those people who think the worse things go the more the society will become
> aware of the problem (because the worse things become the worse the media
> situation tends to get, at least in my experience, and that doesn't favor
> awareness of the facts and problems).
 <...>

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