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<nettime> LOLZ. LSDZ, NSAZ, BRICZ, ARTZ digest (2)
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<nettime> LOLZ. LSDZ, NSAZ, BRICZ, ARTZ digest (2)


From: Eduardo Valle <dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 02:58:42 +0000

You know i know t?o, headquarters , decision makers are not in the South hemisphere, i know because i have a very close experience t?o.

Off course there is dialogue , their  goals is profit. And now the employers  are the  "owners" of the enterprises, it is funny to see them saying " in my enterprise ..." 

The BRICS have to find their mission but Still they are dependent because most of the System is dependent of the G7, Still 

ARt is Still very important and the problem is that collectors from "developed nations" know and recognize that while in others parts of the World that is Still unrecognized, just to ilustrate or TO PROVE that, there is only 2 South americans collectors on a list of top 150 collectors on the very OLD contemporary Art ...
 Industrial Economy is related to Economy and not culture and the wealthy persons from the developed countries knows that culture Is more important and h?s more value that the Economy ...

From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

Duda:
 
As you know, the primary economic development of the past 200 years has 
been INDUSTRIALIZATION, which has moved across the globe -- 
country-by-country.
 
The "developed" world *finished* this process and, as a result, reached a 
plateau and become post-industrial (i.e. shifting to "finance" and other 
services) in the late 20th century, which left it to many other countries to 
GROW much faster as they now being industrialized.
 
The headquarters and CEOs involved in this wider global growth process are 
*NOT* in London or New York but instead in Mumbai, Sao Paolo, Moscow 
and Beijing.  I know, I've been there!
 

There is PLENTY of spectrum for everyone to *talk* and that's what they 
have been doing -- with much of it *refusing* to work under the direction of 
the fading "Imperium."  
 
China will *not* allow themselves to be told what to do by anyone and I 
suspect that Brazil is doing something similar.  The "power" of the old 
industrial centers gets WEAKER (not stronger) every day!  
 

Art (in terms of fairs, rich collectors etc) is a by-product of this 
process and maps into it with a significant "lag" -- given that this is "luxury" 
and not a "productive" activity.  So, it's "backwards" not "forward" 
looking.
 
If you want to chart actual shifts in "power" you would be much better 
dealing with rates of change of energy and materials consumption (i.e. the 
industrial economy) and not "art."
 
Mark
 
In a message dated 2/19/2013 4:49:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:

  In Liverpool i was presenting a Geopolitical analysis of 
  Contemporary Art and Electronic Art  inside of what i called the Web of 
  Art and their 14 instances. I was analysing only 3 instances: the artists, the 
  fairs and the collectors and they were still on the same geopolitical pattern. 

  

  China was rising and so the BRICS because of lack of infra structure, 
  need of expansion of capitalism and cheap labor force , but we all know where 
  the headquarters and CEOs are located...
  

  You were saying that communication is changing everything and if the 
  spectrum is few, how can they even talk ...
  

  So here you have some facts that  reality is not really changing in 
  terms of geopolitical power i will send some conceptual maps from my 
  presentation in Liverpool.

  From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:46:48 -0500
Subject: 
  Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

  Duda:
   
  Sorry -- how do you explain the rise of CHINA in "geopolitical" terms 
  (i.e. a development which was completely missed by the geopoliticists)?
   
  Why would changes in communications make "problems" go away?
   
  And, "communication" isn't about spectrum (which is a machine-to-machine 
  parameter) but instead about how *people* actually TALK to each other!
   
  I wasn't there, so what did you PROVE in Liverpool . . . ?? 
  <g>
   
  Mark
   
  In a message dated 2/19/2013 1:08:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
  
    In geopolitical terms, NO. And this was proved in my 
    presentation in Liverpool in relation to Art. 
    Communication is faster and is cover a broader spectrum but still 
    reproducing the same problems.
    And this broader spectrum is still low, for example if you look at 
    Brasil in terms of digital acess ... or Africa.


    
    
    
    From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:38:09 -0500
Subject: 
    OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: 
    dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com


    Duda:
     
    > It is not because communication is changing that reality is 
    changing 
     
    Really -- how do you know that . . . ??
     
    Mark== 		 	   		  

From: Eduardo Valle <dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:35:55 +0000

Decisions are negociated, at least that, but the BRICS governments are just looking for bu$$$ine$$$ to mantain an economical ?grow* no matter about enviroment , labour conditions, mafia (Russia and oil owners) ...  We are living under FINAZISM so no matter from where the money came from as long as they mantain a certain economical grow, so people can buy a new car and a new computer. You have no ideia how Brazilian states deal when transnationals wants to invest here, fiscal benefits that you will not believe and they will never find that in the developed nations in the name of cheap labour force, profit and a market.
Culture and Art are totally related and collectors play a major role , specially in countries where the State and their Museums dont even know what is to collect Art  and therefore preserves Culture.
Culture, communication and the world are mutants but you can see milenar cultures that are not affected by that, on contrary they reafirm certain things during a long time and facing communication changes. 
YES, I proved and i can apply that in many other fields and instances of Art and you will find the same patterns. Take a look on wich market brazil is leading globally and you will take a picture of what is going on and for shure in ART the leaders are for no coincidence USA and Europe ... Take a look at the leading journals in Science, Art and Technologies and their boards ... Take a look on the top scientists of the world ...Take a look at Elsevier control ...
Jokes are welcome since we are all clowns ... or maybe not
Copy for the list since the discussion begins there.


From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:55:30 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

Duda:
 
CHINA: 0% chance that *important* political or economic decisions will be 
made outside.
 
RUSSIA:  10% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
will be made outside.
 
INDIA: 20% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
will be made outside.
 
BRASIL: ??% chance that *important* political or economic decisions will be 
made outside.
 
If that chance for Brazil is more than 20-30%, then there is no one to 
blame other than the Brazilians -- which I doubt *very* much.
 
Culture is *free* for everyone -- in fact it is an ENVIRONMENT that is 
largely shaped by *communications* technologies.  When those technologies 
change, so does the culture!
 
ART collecting of "major pieces" is NOT the same as "culture" and is NOT 
for everyone -- instead it is an "investment" for some in the *elites* which has 
little to do with either economics or politics.
 
Sorry -- you have NOT proved anything about the global "structure" of power 
by analyzing the location of *high-end* art collectors!
 
Mark

In a message dated 2/19/2013 9:58:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:

  You know i know t?o, headquarters , decision makers are not in 
  the South hemisphere, i know because i have a very close experience 
  t?o.

Off course there is dialogue , their  goals is profit. 
  And now the employers  are the  "owners" of the 
  enterprises, it is funny to see them saying " in my enterprise ..." 
  

The BRICS have to find their mission but Still they are dependent 
  because most of the System is dependent of the G7, Still 

ARt is Still 
  very important and the problem is that collectors from "developed nations" 
  know and recognize that while in others parts of the World that is Still 
  unrecognized, just to ilustrate or TO PROVE that, there is only 2 South 
  americans collectors on a list of top 150 collectors on the very OLD 
  contemporary Art ...
Industrial Economy is related to Economy and not 
  culture and the wealthy persons from the developed countries knows that 
  culture Is more important and h?s more value that the Economy 
  ...

  
  From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:18:05 -0500
Subject: 
  Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

  Duda:
   
  As you know, the primary economic development of the past 200 years has 
  been INDUSTRIALIZATION, which has moved across the globe -- 
  country-by-country.
   
  The "developed" world *finished* this process and, as a result, reached a 
  plateau and become post-industrial (i.e. shifting to "finance" and other 
  services) in the late 20th century, which left it to many other countries to 
  GROW much faster as they now being industrialized.
   
  The headquarters and CEOs involved in this wider global growth process 
  are *NOT* in London or New York but instead in Mumbai, Sao Paolo, Moscow 
  and Beijing.  I know, I've been there!
   
  
  There is PLENTY of spectrum for everyone to *talk* and that's what they 
  have been doing -- with much of it *refusing* to work under the direction of 
  the fading "Imperium."  
   
  China will *not* allow themselves to be told what to do by anyone and I 
  suspect that Brazil is doing something similar.  The "power" of the old 
  industrial centers gets WEAKER (not stronger) every day!  
   
  
  Art (in terms of fairs, rich collectors etc) is a by-product of this 
  process and maps into it with a significant "lag" -- given that this is 
  "luxury" and not a "productive" activity.  So, it's "backwards" not 
  "forward" looking.
   
  If you want to chart actual shifts in "power" you would be much better 
  dealing with rates of change of energy and materials consumption (i.e. the 
  industrial economy) and not "art."
   
  Mark
    
  In a message dated 2/19/2013 4:49:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
  
    In Liverpool i was presenting a Geopolitical analysis of 
    Contemporary Art and Electronic Art  inside of what i called the Web of 
    Art and their 14 instances. I was analysing only 3 instances: the artists, 
    the fairs and the collectors and they were still on the same geopolitical 
    pattern. 
    

    China was rising and so the BRICS because of lack of infra structure, 
    need of expansion of capitalism and cheap labor force , but we all know 
    where the headquarters and CEOs are located...
    

    You were saying that communication is changing everything and if the 
    spectrum is few, how can they even talk ...
    

    So here you have some facts that  reality is not really changing 
    in terms of geopolitical power i will send some conceptual maps from my 
    presentation in Liverpool.

    From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:46:48 -0500
Subject: 
    Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: 
    dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com


    Duda:
     
    Sorry -- how do you explain the rise of CHINA in "geopolitical" terms 
    (i.e. a development which was completely missed by the 
geopoliticists)?
     
    Why would changes in communications make "problems" go away?
     
    And, "communication" isn't about spectrum (which is a 
    machine-to-machine parameter) but instead about how *people* actually TALK 
    to each other!
     
    I wasn't there, so what did you PROVE in Liverpool . . . ?? 
    <g>
     
    Mark
       
    In a message dated 2/19/2013 1:08:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
    dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
    
      In geopolitical terms, NO. And this was proved in my 
      presentation in Liverpool in relation to Art. 
      Communication is faster and is cover a broader spectrum but still 
      reproducing the same problems.
      And this broader spectrum is still low, for example if you look at 
      Brasil in terms of digital acess ... or Africa.

      From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:38:09 
      -0500
Subject: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and 
      Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

      Duda:
       
      > It is not because communication is changing that reality is 
      changing 
       
      Really -- how do you know that . . . ??
       
      Mark=== 		 	   		  
>From dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com  Wed Feb 20 23:51:08 2013
From: Eduardo Valle <dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com>
To: "newmedia {AT} aol.com" <newmedia {AT} aol.com>, "nettime {AT} kein.org"
	<nettime {AT} kein.org>
Subject: RE: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:50:58 +0000
Importance: Normal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: RO
X-Status: F
Content-Length: 9391
Lines: 275

I use digital technologies and is nothing new, you like the ones thats says new media ...Creativity and  interesting things are not only related to digital ..

The discussion started in nettime so ...

From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

Duda:
 
If it says OFFLIST then it's NOT for nettime -- okay?
 
Yes, it's a MARKET (or whatever you want to call it) economy worldwide -- 
not exactly a big discovery . . . !! <g>
 
The fact that some places are more "developed" than others and that RICH 
people like to collect art -- also not a surprise.
 
If you care to think through the NEW effects of *digital* technologies, 
then you might come up with something new and interesting . . . or maybe 
not.
 
Mark
 
In a message dated 2/20/2013 11:35:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:

  Decisions are negociated, at least that, but the BRICS 
  governments are just looking for bu$$$ine$$$ to mantain an economical ?grow* 
  no matter about enviroment , labour conditions, mafia (Russia and oil owners) 
  ...  We are living under FINAZISM so no matter from where the money came 
  from as long as they mantain a certain economical grow, so people can buy a 
  new car and a new computer. You have no ideia how Brazilian states deal when 
  transnationals wants to invest here, fiscal benefits that you will not believe 
  and they will never find that in the developed nations in the name of cheap 
  labour force, profit and a market. 
  

  Culture and Art are totally related and collectors play a major role , 
  specially in countries where the State and their Museums dont even know what 
  is to collect Art  and therefore preserves Culture.
  

  Culture, communication and the world are mutants but you can see milenar 
  cultures that are not affected by that, on contrary they reafirm certain 
  things during a long time and facing communication changes. 
  

  YES, I proved and i can apply that in many other fields and instances of 
  Art and you will find the same patterns. Take a look on wich market brazil is 
  leading globally and you will take a picture of what is going on and for shure 
  in ART the leaders are for no coincidence USA and Europe ... Take a look at 
  the leading journals in Science, Art and Technologies and their boards ... 
  Take a look on the top scientists of the world ...
  Take a look at Elsevier control ...
  

  Jokes are welcome since we are all clowns ... or maybe not
  

  Copy for the list since the discussion begins there.
  
  From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:55:30 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

  Duda:
   
  CHINA: 0% chance that *important* political or economic decisions will be 
  made outside.
   
  RUSSIA:  10% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
  will be made outside.
   
  INDIA: 20% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
  will be made outside.
   
  BRASIL: ??% chance that *important* political or economic decisions will 
  be made outside.
   
  If that chance for Brazil is more than 20-30%, then there is no one to 
  blame other than the Brazilians -- which I doubt *very* much.
   
  Culture is *free* for everyone -- in fact it is an ENVIRONMENT that is 
  largely shaped by *communications* technologies.  When those technologies 
  change, so does the culture!
   
  ART collecting of "major pieces" is NOT the same as "culture" and is NOT 
  for everyone -- instead it is an "investment" for some in the *elites* which 
  has little to do with either economics or politics.
   
  Sorry -- you have NOT proved anything about the global "structure" of 
  power by analyzing the location of *high-end* art collectors!
   
  Mark  
  
  In a message dated 2/19/2013 9:58:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
  
    You know i know t?o, headquarters , decision makers are not in 
    the South hemisphere, i know because i have a very close experience 
    t?o.

Off course there is dialogue , their  goals is profit. 
    And now the employers  are the  "owners" of the 
    enterprises, it is funny to see them saying " in my enterprise ..." 
    

The BRICS have to find their mission but Still they are dependent 
    because most of the System is dependent of the G7, Still 

ARt is 
    Still very important and the problem is that collectors from "developed 
    nations" know and recognize that while in others parts of the World that is 
    Still unrecognized, just to ilustrate or TO PROVE that, there is only 2 
    South americans collectors on a list of top 150 collectors on the very OLD 
    contemporary Art ...
Industrial Economy is related to Economy and not 
    culture and the wealthy persons from the developed countries knows that 
    culture Is more important and h?s more value that the Economy 
    ...

    From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

    Duda:
     
    As you know, the primary economic development of the past 200 years has 
    been INDUSTRIALIZATION, which has moved across the globe -- 
    country-by-country.
     
    The "developed" world *finished* this process and, as a result, reached 
    a plateau and become post-industrial (i.e. shifting to "finance" and other 
    services) in the late 20th century, which left it to many other countries to 
    GROW much faster as they now being industrialized.
     
    The headquarters and CEOs involved in this wider global growth process 
    are *NOT* in London or New York but instead in Mumbai, Sao Paolo, Moscow 
    and Beijing.  I know, I've been there!
     
    There is PLENTY of spectrum for everyone to *talk* and that's what they 
    have been doing -- with much of it *refusing* to work under the direction of 
    the fading "Imperium."  
     
    China will *not* allow themselves to be told what to do by anyone and I 
    suspect that Brazil is doing something similar.  The "power" of the old 
    industrial centers gets WEAKER (not stronger) every day!  
     
    
    Art (in terms of fairs, rich collectors etc) is a by-product of this 
    process and maps into it with a significant "lag" -- given that this is 
    "luxury" and not a "productive" activity.  So, it's "backwards" not 
    "forward" looking.
     
    If you want to chart actual shifts in "power" you would be much better 
    dealing with rates of change of energy and materials consumption (i.e. the 
    industrial economy) and not "art."
     
    Mark
     
    In a message dated 2/19/2013 4:49:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
    dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
    
      In Liverpool i was presenting a Geopolitical analysis of 
      Contemporary Art and Electronic Art  inside of what i called the Web 
      of Art and their 14 instances. I was analysing only 3 instances: the 
      artists, the fairs and the collectors and they were still on the same 
      geopolitical pattern. 
      

      China was rising and so the BRICS because of lack of infra structure, 
      need of expansion of capitalism and cheap labor force , but we all know 
      where the headquarters and CEOs are located...
      

      You were saying that communication is changing everything and if the 
      spectrum is few, how can they even talk ...
      

      So here you have some facts that  reality is not really changing 
      in terms of geopolitical power i will send some conceptual maps from my 
      presentation in Liverpool.
      
      From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:46:48 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

      Duda:
       
      Sorry -- how do you explain the rise of CHINA in "geopolitical" terms 
      (i.e. a development which was completely missed by the 
      geopoliticists)?
       
      Why would changes in communications make "problems" go away?
       
      And, "communication" isn't about spectrum (which is a 
      machine-to-machine parameter) but instead about how *people* actually TALK 
      to each other!
       
      I wasn't there, so what did you PROVE in Liverpool . . . ?? 
      <g>
       
      Mark
        
      In a message dated 2/19/2013 1:08:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
      dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
      
        In geopolitical terms, NO. And this was proved in my 
        presentation in Liverpool in relation to Art. 
        Communication is faster and is cover a broader spectrum but still 
        reproducing the same problems.
        And this broader spectrum is still low, for example if you look at 
        Brasil in terms of digital acess ... or Africa.

From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:38:09 -0500
Subject: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

        Duda:
         
        > It is not because communication is changing that reality is 
        changing 
         
        Really -- how do you know that . . . ??
         
        Mark==== 		 	   		  

From: Eduardo Valle <dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:52:46 +0000

There is no OLD or new media aproach there is life and the digital condition.
I work on a daily basis and as Far as i know raise Your foice or show Your opinion in 2 discussion lists and in one social media is Far from being a TV star or a Spam... If there is something that i use less and less is TV ...
Sometimes You have to fight to sustain Your point the view If You are not part of any group, so ...
and YES i proved that in geopolitical terms NEW or OLD media are under Control of the same geopolitical Power, but it is something that the majority dont want to discuss , they just want to discuss How wonderfull digital technologies are ...
The discussion started in nettime so for me is important that they have acess too ...  Talking about acess do You want to discuss Internet acess in the World , Maybe You can analyse that t?o and see How they are Still concentrate in some parts of the World...

From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 04:09:28 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet

Duda:
 
Your urge to "perform in public" -- risking my cutting off what is 
supposed to be a *private* conversation -- is indeed an OLD MEDIA approach using 
"new media" technologies.
 
You have adopted the role of a BROADCASTER with your posts to Facebook, 
nettime etc, so, yes, in terms of your own "creativity" you are *not* 
operating in a "digital" modality -- instead you behave as if you were the 
"star" in your own television show!
 
But the *environment* has changed.  It is now DIGITAL.  
Television is no longer in "charge" of our lives.  Under the circumstances, 
acting like a TV star is understandable but also a "throw-back."
 
You want people to pay attention to you, so you have to "engage" 
them, but you don't really want to have a conversation -- which is why you 
insist on posting all this to nettime.
 
Like the rest of us, you are "caught" in the interval between two 
worlds, in an age of radical transition . . . 
 
Mark
 
In a message dated 2/20/2013 5:51:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:

  I use digital technologies and is nothing new, you like the ones 
  thats says new media ... 
  Creativity and  interesting things are not only related to digital 
  ..

  The discussion started in nettime so ...

  From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

  Duda:
   
  If it says OFFLIST then it's NOT for nettime -- okay?
   
  Yes, it's a MARKET (or whatever you want to call it) economy worldwide -- 
  not exactly a big discovery . . . !! <g>
   
  The fact that some places are more "developed" than others and that RICH 
  people like to collect art -- also not a surprise.
   
  If you care to think through the NEW effects of *digital* technologies, 
  then you might come up with something new and interesting . . . or maybe 
  not.
   
  Mark
   
  In a message dated 2/20/2013 11:35:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
  
    Decisions are negociated, at least that, but the BRICS 
    governments are just looking for bu$$$ine$$$ to mantain an economical ?grow* 
    no matter about enviroment , labour conditions, mafia (Russia and oil 
    owners) ...  We are living under FINAZISM so no matter from where the 
    money came from as long as they mantain a certain economical grow, so people 
    can buy a new car and a new computer. You have no ideia how Brazilian states 
    deal when transnationals wants to invest here, fiscal benefits that you will 
    not believe and they will never find that in the developed nations in the 
    name of cheap labour force, profit and a market. 
    

    Culture and Art are totally related and collectors play a major role , 
    specially in countries where the State and their Museums dont even know what 
    is to collect Art  and therefore preserves Culture.
    

    Culture, communication and the world are mutants but you can see 
    milenar cultures that are not affected by that, on contrary they reafirm 
    certain things during a long time and facing communication 
    changes. 
    

    YES, I proved and i can apply that in many other fields and instances 
    of Art and you will find the same patterns. Take a look on wich market 
    brazil is leading globally and you will take a picture of what is going on 
    and for shure in ART the leaders are for no coincidence USA and Europe ... 
    Take a look at the leading journals in Science, Art and Technologies and 
    their boards ... Take a look on the top scientists of the world ...
    Take a look at Elsevier control ...
    

    Jokes are welcome since we are all clowns ... or maybe not
    

    Copy for the list since the discussion begins there.
    
    From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:55:30 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

    Duda:
     
    CHINA: 0% chance that *important* political or economic decisions will 
    be made outside.
     
    RUSSIA:  10% chance that *important* political or economic 
    decisions will be made outside.
     
    INDIA: 20% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
    will be made outside.
     
    BRASIL: ??% chance that *important* political or economic decisions 
    will be made outside.
     
    If that chance for Brazil is more than 20-30%, then there is no one to 
    blame other than the Brazilians -- which I doubt *very* much.
     
    Culture is *free* for everyone -- in fact it is an ENVIRONMENT that is 
    largely shaped by *communications* technologies.  When those 
    technologies change, so does the culture!
     
    ART collecting of "major pieces" is NOT the same as "culture" and is 
    NOT for everyone -- instead it is an "investment" for some in the *elites* 
    which has little to do with either economics or politics.
     
    Sorry -- you have NOT proved anything about the global "structure" of 
    power by analyzing the location of *high-end* art collectors!
     
    Mark
     
    In a message dated 2/19/2013 9:58:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
    dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
    
      You know i know t?o, headquarters , decision makers are not 
      in the South hemisphere, i know because i have a very close experience 
      t?o.

Off course there is dialogue , their  goals is 
      profit. And now the employers  are the  "owners" of 
      the enterprises, it is funny to see them saying " in my enterprise ..." 
      

The BRICS have to find their mission but Still they are dependent 
      because most of the System is dependent of the G7, Still 

ARt is 
      Still very important and the problem is that collectors from "developed 
      nations" know and recognize that while in others parts of the World that 
      is Still unrecognized, just to ilustrate or TO PROVE that, there is only 2 
      South americans collectors on a list of top 150 collectors on the very OLD 
      contemporary Art ...
Industrial Economy is related to Economy and not 
      culture and the wealthy persons from the developed countries knows that 
      culture Is more important and h?s more value that the Economy 
      ...

      From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

      Duda:
       
      As you know, the primary economic development of the past 200 years 
      has been INDUSTRIALIZATION, which has moved across the globe -- 
      country-by-country.
       
      The "developed" world *finished* this process and, as a result, 
      reached a plateau and become post-industrial (i.e. shifting to "finance" 
      and other services) in the late 20th century, which left it to many other 
      countries to GROW much faster as they now being industrialized.
       
      The headquarters and CEOs involved in this wider global growth 
      process are *NOT* in London or New York but instead in Mumbai, Sao Paolo, 
      Moscow and Beijing.  I know, I've been there!
      
      There is PLENTY of spectrum for everyone to *talk* and that's what 
      they have been doing -- with much of it *refusing* to work under the 
      direction of the fading "Imperium."  
       
      China will *not* allow themselves to be told what to do by anyone and 
      I suspect that Brazil is doing something similar.  The "power" of the 
      old industrial centers gets WEAKER (not stronger) every day!  
      
      Art (in terms of fairs, rich collectors etc) is a by-product of this 
      process and maps into it with a significant "lag" -- given that this is 
      "luxury" and not a "productive" activity.  So, it's "backwards" not 
      "forward" looking.
       
      If you want to chart actual shifts in "power" you would be much 
      better dealing with rates of change of energy and materials consumption 
      (i.e. the industrial economy) and not "art."
       
      Mark
             
      In a message dated 2/19/2013 4:49:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
      dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
      
        In Liverpool i was presenting a Geopolitical analysis of 
        Contemporary Art and Electronic Art  inside of what i called the 
        Web of Art and their 14 instances. I was analysing only 3 instances: the 
        artists, the fairs and the collectors and they were still on the same 
        geopolitical pattern. 
        

        China was rising and so the BRICS because of lack of infra 
        structure, need of expansion of capitalism and cheap labor force , but 
        we all know where the headquarters and CEOs are located...
        

        You were saying that communication is changing everything and if 
        the spectrum is few, how can they even talk ...
        

        So here you have some facts that  reality is not really 
        changing in terms of geopolitical power i will send some conceptual maps 
        from my presentation in Liverpool.

        From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:46:48 -0500
Subject: Re: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

        Duda:
         
        Sorry -- how do you explain the rise of CHINA in "geopolitical" 
        terms (i.e. a development which was completely missed by the 
        geopoliticists)?
         
        Why would changes in communications make "problems" go away?
         
        And, "communication" isn't about spectrum (which is a 
        machine-to-machine parameter) but instead about how *people* actually 
        TALK to each other!
         
        I wasn't there, so what did you PROVE in Liverpool . . . ?? 
        <g>
         
        Mark
         
        In a message dated 2/19/2013 1:08:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
        dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com writes:
        
          In geopolitical terms, NO. And this was proved in my 
          presentation in Liverpool in relation to Art. 
          Communication is faster and is cover a broader spectrum but still 
          reproducing the same problems.
          And this broader spectrum is still low, for example if you look 
          at Brasil in terms of digital acess ... or Africa.


          From: Newmedia {AT} aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:38:09 -0500
Subject: OFFLIST Re: <nettime> Geopolitics and Internet
To: dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com

          Duda:
           
          > It is not because communication is changing that reality is 
          changing 
           
          Really -- how do you know that . . . ??
           
          Mark===== 		 	   		  

From: Eduardo Valle <dudavalle {AT} hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: nettime-l Digest, Vol 65, Issue 4
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:38:10 +0000

Jernej, history repeating , just for You to let You know only 30 % of the brazilians h?s acess to internet and the majority of that is private ... i wonder How are these number in ?frica and Who are the providers ... Please tell me How many countries in this World h?s his own sat?lite ... But is all new, equal and neutral ...

> From: nettime-l-request {AT} mail.kein.org
> Subject: nettime-l Digest, Vol 65, Issue 4
> To: nettime-l {AT} mail.kein.org
> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 01:06:05 +0100
> 
> Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to
> 	nettime-l {AT} mail.kein.org
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