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<nettime> Tags in the fucking Cloud: .nl haxxxxorz; or, What's wrong wit
nettime's_roving_reporter on Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:37:52 +0200 (CEST)

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<nettime> Tags in the fucking Cloud: .nl haxxxxorz; or, What's wrong with the kids these days?


Tags in the fucking Cloud

   ubica censorship utrecht culture radio analyse
   hacken surveillance puscii politie privacy

What's wrong with the kids these days?

   Submitted by groente on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 14:51

   On the moral decay of the Dutch hacker scene

   A lot has changed since the days when the people around Hacktic set up
   and defined the Dutch hacker scene. The Hang Out made way for a variety
   of hackerspaces; Hacktic itself is long dead (who needs dead trees to
   communicate nowadays anyway?) and the crew organizing OHM2013 is a
   completely different one from the oldies that had set up the Galactic
   Hacker Party and HIP. In short, we're looking at a complete new
   generation of Dutch hackers.

   Of course, nothing is more normal and healthy than for kids to rebel
   against their parents, but our parents have given us a difficult task
   there. For how in hell does one rebel against oldies who
   self-identified as "techno-anarchists" and were all too pleased with
   their image as online rebels? Some of the kids found a way: join the
   police! Well, technically, create a company that does the online dirty
   work for the police, but in this day and age of neo-liberalism and
   privatisation the difference is marginal...
   Now, the notion of hackers voluntarily joining the police probably
   sounds completely absurd to an outsider, but that's pretty much what
   happened. The Dutch High Tech Crime Unit is called Fox-IT. In case the
   name doesn't ring a bell, they're the main sponsor of OHM2013, employer
   of half of the organising core team, and you may find their logo
   painted on the wall of a Dutch hackerspace - not as a
   fuck-the-police-type graffiti, but as a thank-you for their kind

   Let's have a closer look at this company. Founded in '99 by two TU
   Delft alumni who had previously worked for the NFI (forensics
   institute) and the BVD (secret service), Fox-IT started as a relatively
   normal security company. Such was the hip thing to do for a hacker who
   wanted to legally cash in on their skills at the height of the IT
   bubble. Things start to get saucy around 2006 when they developed
   FoxReplay, a tool for wiretapping, and started selling on the
   international market. Not caring much for their customers regard for
   human rights, Fox-IT has promoted their services to countries like Iran
   and the United Arabic Emirates, and sales to Egypt have also been
   confirmed. On September 27th 2011, Fox-IT sold their tapping-branch to
   the US company Netscout, conveniently just one day before a change in
   EU regulations was to place restrictions on the export of wiretap
   But things also get a lot closer to home for the Dutch hackers, as
   Fox-IT has assisted the Dutch police in the apprehension of 4 members
   of AntiSec NL, a Dutch group closely linked to Anonymous.
   To add to the sauce, Fox-IT has been experimenting with 'hacking back',
   as they call it. In an operation that was meant to take down the
   Bredolab botnet, Fox-IT used the seized 'command and control' servers
   to inject code on infected machines worldwide to display a message from
   the Dutch police. A clever hack, if you will, but also a controversial
   and illegal one. Lately, Fox-IT has been publicly lobbying to create
   legal rights for law enforcement to actively crack target systems.
   Fox-IT now has customers worldwide and around 150 employees. They are
   the prototype of a privatised blend of law enforcement and defense,
   unhindered by any ethics and stretching its praxis to the shady borders
   of legality.

   That's the kind of company considered hip amongst contemporary Dutch
   hackers, who seem all too happy associating with and working for them.
   Fox-IT is actively recruiting within the scene, and many a hacker who
   used to share his tools and knowledge now works for them. Now, where
   did that come from? Sure, the scene has always had a bit of a
   flirtatious relationship with the secret service, but the old Hacktic
   crew simply giggled at the silly men with sunglasses and trenchcoats
   who attended their meetings. Moreover, they were exposing the
   wiretapping and other sniffing methods that were in use then, giving
   the general public means to detect, if not avoid, or play around with
   Those early days of the hacker scene were marked by a shared sense of
   ethics: a hands-on attitude, for freedom of information and a healthy
   distrust of any authority. Luckily, on a global scale, many of these
   values have persevered. For example, one look at the CCC website is
   enough to see a strong outspokenness on the political issues
   surrounding hacking, actively monitoring and criticizing state
   surveillance. In fact, hackers worldwide are working on tools to
   subvert (state) surveillance and censorship. Furthermore, with the rise
   of Anonymous and related groups, we have seen an incredible increase in
   politically motivated hacks and cracks, all based on those same basic
   values of personal freedom and distrust towards authority.

   How are we to interpret the bizarre contrast between upholding these
   values and happily accepting a company like Fox-IT in our midst? Are
   OHM and a number of hackerspaces drifting away from the hacker scene
   towards the security industry? Or do people simply not think or care
   about these issues because they distract from playing with LEDs and
   arduinos? Maybe the money is simply too good? Either way, the Dutch
   hacker scene is suffering from a severe case of schizophrenia where, on
   the one hand, it identifies itself with a global scene struggling
   against surveillance and, on the other hand, it condones, receives
   money from, advertises or even concretely works on the buildup of
   exactly that surveillance state.

   The usual approach to such mental illness that is seen all too often
   within the hacker scene is to simply ignore it and bury it deep down in
   our subconciousness. Indeed, sometimes simply ignoring the peculiar
   conflicts that arise within our brain may lead us to perfectly happy
   (though perhaps somewhat socially awkward) lives. Not in this case,
   though. As the world around us is transforming, the importance of
   resolving this inner conflict is becoming ever more urgent. Like it or
   not, the hacker scene is a key player in a much larger political game
   that will determine the face of future online communication. If we are
   to sell away our skills to unscrupulous companies working for
   power-hungry governments, that future could be very grim.

   It is for these reasons that the current generation of hackers needs to
   take a step back and reconsider the wise lessons our parents gave us.
   One cannot simply take the cool image of being a hacker yet act in ways
   that are complete opposite. It's not cool to assist in the creation of
   an Orwellian dystopia. It's also definitely not cool to assist in the
   apprehension of your fellow hackers (imagine how they might feel about
   attending the largest European hackercamp this year). That is not to
   say it's all black and white, or that we should form some sort of
   unified front, but maintaining a praxis that is the direct opposite of
   what you are preaching is both unhealthy for yourselves and dangerous
   towards others. So please, work out who you really are and where you
   stand. Read the old philes and the new. Rethink what's going on in the
   world around you. Discuss the role we play in it. Define your identity.
   And, in the end, if you still wish to call yourself a hacker, leave the
   fox out.


   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 16:36.

I am a little upset right now...

   I was so sad that I couldn't attend HAR2009. And I was really looking
   forward to visit OHM2013. Thank you for clearing this up on time, so I
   can reschedule to go to another place this summer.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 17:46.


   Really? You thought the point of this blog was to say that OHM2013 is
   going to suck? I really don't understand your reaction, unless you
   really care that much about who is on the sponsor list.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 19:32.


   if you don't care about who is the sponsor probably you haven't
   understood the post itself. OHM2013 does suck if it's sponsored by that
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 20:45.

har2009 was sponsored by fox-it too

   so har2009 sucked as well! end of argument.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 21:41.

The difference was that back

   The difference was that back in 2009, foxit wasnt actively performing
   and pushing for strikeback ;)
     * reply

   Submitted by groente on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 20:57.

this is not a boycot

   Just to be clear, this was never meant as a callout to boycot OHM, nor
   was it meant to imply that the whole event sucks. It's merely spelling
   out what should've been an obvious 'wtf?' and giving some food for
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 00:36.

the death of ohm 2013 by groente

   Too late 'groente': the uptake of this article by fefe has led to a
   storm of outrage from the German hacker community (who remember their
   own NAZI past well and now get into a fit against anything that
   remotely smells of their own ways back then).

   Volunteers are dropping out.

   Congratulations, you killed OHM. I was looking forward to it! Now we
   may *never* have this event again in The Netherlands. The only event
   where the dutch hackers come together in the thousands and are
   interacting with their peers.

   A black day in the history of dutch hackerscene. A name to remember.
   'Groente', the man who killed OHM2013.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 05:08.

not to blame

   _if_ german hackers are dropping out in the hundrets, groente still
   isn't to blame for it, because $correctTM then would be: "Don't tell
   people about our gold sponsors", which makes no sense.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:11.

who needs german hackers

   who needs german hackers anyway ? they smell !
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 11:03.

Very childish...

   Very childish...
     * reply

   Submitted by fierman on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 21:04.

no, ohm2013 does not suck

   The mere fact that people are raising questions to the scene does not
   mean that the whole event 'sucks'. In fact, most of the people from the
   Puscii collective will be present at OHM2013, actively participating in
   discussions and events.

   The main question is of course: how can we relate to our own values
   like respect for privacy, human rights and critical thinking, while at
   the same time 'we' are co-operating with companies who are literally
   opposing those same values. That is a question the hackerscene should
   be willing to discuss and answer. One of the best places to do that is
   at OHM2013,
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 00:41.

Relax! It's only money...

   And without the substantial kind of sponsoring, like Fox-IT is giving,
   there would be no OHM2013 to go to and discuss all this.

   People, it's just money... It wasn't taken from dying children, no
   kittens were killed for it, and it will be used for the greater good.
   It may be money coming from governments. Maybe even some very rotten
   ones. So in effect *they* may even have sponsored OHM.

   But I can only see this as a good thing: Even if the most evil
   governments have -indirectly- sponsored OHM2013, this does not change a
   thing about how we can use that money. OHM2013 is a 100% independent
   event. Sponsors get no say in the content.
   Just be glad that money wasn't spent on buying weapons or the like!
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 14:04.

In money we trust!

   I found your comment really stupid. How you can say that the origin of
   money doesn't matter? And do yu really think this money is no meant to
   be considered an investemnt in new kind of weapons?
   First result, really concrete, is that there are people that consider
   normal to have partenrship with governement and military agency, to
   sell tools to control and limit other people, just to have a bigger
   conformt area!

   What's the greater good that money will be used for? To create a great
   show about hacking with a lot of colorful and tricky superficial
   details but the inside is fucking rotten: how you can talk about
   freedom when the event is organised with money mad3e by limiting
   freedom of other people? You just becom a puppet in the hands of that

   It would be much better to ask to pay a fee than have a free but bloody

   the way to get to a goal is even more important than just reach the
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 22:52.


   One way to deal wit this ...

   How much did Fox give? Lets raise that money and tell Fox to stay away.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 23:03.

Start raising...

   Start raising...
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 05:36.

good idea

     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:55.


   Fox-IT is a gold sponsor, meaning they gave at least 25.000.
   With 3.000 people attending this is EUR8,33 euro per person...

   But it shouldn't be to hard to find 25 companies, NGO's, groups or so
   that are willing and could pay EUR1.000,-

   Hey, it is the age of crowd-sourcing, right?
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:58.

EUR 50000

   Don't forget costs for breaking open a signed contract.

   Great ethical solution: we don't agree with something, so we just pay
   to have it removed from sight. Nicely done, the Hollywood content
   criminals have taught you all well.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 16:36.

If you think it isn't that

   If you think it isn't that hard to find a sponsor who doesn't feel the
   need to influence the program, please feel free to ask these sponsors
   to read the sponsor documentation and contact the board.

   Some possible sponsorships already are declined because they did want
   to influence the camp and/or the program and that is NOT something OHM
   organisation (which could be you, because it can be anybody) wants.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Tue, 03/26/2013 - 23:07.

Fox is not our biggest problem

   Cannot remember this being an issue back in the good 'ol days of 2009
   when Fox-IT was also one of sponsors that provided much needed *early*
   cashflow. The world was *slightly* less insane back then but only
   slightly (wikileaks members had not yet been openly threatened by
   western governments with extra-judicial killing - and if you don't
   know what that means you really need to read this post to the end).

   The old-fart part of me does agree with some of the 'kids-these-days'
   feelings voiced in the piece on PUSCII, just not the focus on Fox. A
   willingness to fight and take real and personal risks for
   basic-priciples is needed more than ever in our societies today. A
   willingness to understand what is happening in the world (especially if
   this is very outside your comfort zone) and to help others do so is
   just as important. A bit more Free Software (principled stand) instead
   of just 'opensource' (practical method) would not hurt the Dutch
   technology scene IMHO.

   I sometimes voice the opinion that the rules applied by the victors of
   WWII to German leaders (thou shalt not initiate offensive wars based on
   lies) should now also apply to the leadership of the US, the UK and the
   Netherlands. For this I am called a radical. Perhaps more of us need to
   get a bit radical or risk waking up in 1984 someday soon. If
   no-one pushes back against the stuff you're trying to accomplish you're
   obviously not trying hard enough.

   Do note that OHM2013 will be the *only* major event in the Netherlands
   were some important whistleblowers from the world of spooks and spies
   (CIA, NSA, FBI, MI5) are given a platform to share their insights with
   people who will hear about them for the first time. Just as HAR2009 was
   the *only* place in NL in 2009 were Wikileaks got a soapbox in front of
   a significant audience. That's how messed up the country is
   right now.

   We offer something real at a time when it is much needed. I would not
   be involved with OHM if it were otherwise - life's too short and the
   planet too fucked-up to mess about with minor stuff.

   (Arjen Kamphuis does not work for Fox-IT and left IBM in 1999 ;-)
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 01:37.

A well written article deserves a somewhat OK response...

   Thanks for a sourced and well written statement, i can only respect an
   author that has taken the time and liberty to write a story that is
   backed up with some facts and details. This should be commended,
   whoever the author may be.

   Free will:
   The author states that working for a company results in the employee
   fully accepting all that the company has done in the past and that the
   employee wholemindedly promotes and understand every aspect of that
   company, implying that such company has the power to remove any free
   will of the employee. Such is not the case, as absolutism on working
   for companies / having some mindset is just as dangerous as absolutism
   by state control. Look at the Zen symbol.

   Hackers also have a significant impact on the direction of many
   companies. Is having "insiders" not a crucial prevention of absolutism?
   Many company-people are very stupid/short-sighted and might aid in more
   forcefully oppressing hackers. For example: without embedded hackers
   and the good spirits of those, there would be no "responsible
   disclosure" policy and the movement that companies will adopt this.

   There is no such thing as "we". "we" just happend to be. I don't like
   to be controlled by people that say that "we" should do anything. "we"
   is temporal, "we" is separating people, fuck "we". If someone wants to
   be part of the "we" and be an outspoken mistrusting, over skeptic,
   conspiracy driven individual, so be it. Is this also "we"? Maybe...

   Just another random vision:
   Although your story has critique and is fairly negative while not
   having consulted the opposing party. This makes bad journalism and
   turns this into a column thing. But I still like it over empty
   allegations, because it gives a body to discuss and might inspire
   people. But be careful: Even when everyone and everything has changed
   their ways, there are still people using some (possibly outdated) facts
   to create a negative image. Just to refer foxes: this is what companies
   like Fox News do best.

   -- Stitch
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 08:05.

Lagging behind

   The general trend with "the kids these days" is, in my observation,
   going in the right direction. Whereas for years the hacker community in
   The Netherlands was half-heartily following thought leaders from the US
   and Germany, there seems to be a trend to form an opinion that develops
   in the same direction as Germany. I'd say it's lagging behind a bit,
   which only reflects society as a whole. Bits of Freedom, the rise of
   hacker spaces, debate around government agencies recruiting, this all
   leads to more outspoken opinions.

   What The Netherlands lack is a single platform to discuss. In Germany
   there is the CCC, where a clear opinion was formed and guarded over
   more than 30 years. In The Netherlands no such thing. There is the
   four-yearly hacker camp though, a most excellent spot to discuss trends
   like described above.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 09:27.

HITB network run by police!

   Yes you are right it is bad. Did you know that the hacker conference
   next month in amsterdam, hack in the box (HITB) has a network team with
   the leader (ruud or ruuder or something) being a guy who works for the
   police? You think i will go to a conference where the police are
   tapping the network because they make the network?

   oh and that same ruud or whatever is also the leader of the hackerspace
   in amersfoort. really, hackers stay away from hitb ohm or the
   hackerspaces they are all infested with cops!!
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 10:03.

TOR and CCC are in it as well

   You know TOR? From Jacob Appelbaum? You know they are working closely
   with the police in the US and The Netherlands, right?


   And Dingledine is also good friends with Rop Gonggrijp, you know. The
   example hacker from way back? He sold out to KPN, and now has a company
   that makes cryptographic phones. And those are sold to governments to
   keep their communication a secret from their people.

   And what all the germans are upset about? They should look at
   theirselfs first: one of the CCC figureheads at least works for the
   same company from Rop Gonggrijp making phones to help oppressive
   governments to keep their secrets.

   So not only the dutch hackers are falling for the trap. The american
   hackers are too, and so are the Germans!
     * reply

   Submitted by Jacob Appelbaum (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 -

open dialog is important

   Working closely? Hardly. Talking with people? Understanding what
   they're doing and how anonymity actually is seen, used and debated
   across the spectrum? Yeah - what exactly is wrong with such activities?
   Anonymity must be for everyone and if we try to pretend otherwise,
   we'll see that only the police and intelligence agencies have
   anonymity. That is basically the current state of affairs - anyone with
   privilege and wealth is welcome to their privacy at a cost; everyone
   else is out of luck. I want privacy, security and anonymity for
   everyone on the planet.

   Cryptophone is used by lots of people around the world. Demonizing
   Frank and Rop for Cryptophone is unreasonable. They produce devices
   without a backdoor and have led the way to normalizing secure
   communications for everyone - yes, it includes people that I personally
   find uncomfortable and yet, such a thing cuts both ways. Will you also
   demonize them for allowing WikiLeaks to use such phones?

   When speaking at the NCSC event, I made it perfectly clear that police
   malware and wiretapping are wrong. Not just ethically but also
   strategically. I openly challenged the current "intelligence service"
   way of operating.

   I encourage you to attend such an event and discuss your feelings on
   the matter openly. If you think merely conversing with the people
   attending NCSC is somehow evil, I'd ask you to share how you've come to
   that conclusion? If you think that speaking about the issues and
   threats we face (essentially a talk similar to the 28c3 talk that Roger
   and I gave about Tor) is wrong, I'd ask again, how did you come to that
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:32.


   What is bullshit, are you still a client at KPN/Tmobile/Vodafone/etc?
   They also work for the Dutch Police... :p
   BTW, if you are such a crazy and 1337 hackah, aren't you smart enough
   to install an openvpn then?
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:07.

openvpn has fox it code in it

   Using openvpn would be stupid. check the commit logs, fox-it is one of
   the committers of that vpn software.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:46.


   ik wil wat jij rookt
     * reply

   Submitted by Ruuder (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 14:45.

I like this speculation of

   I like this speculation of monitoring if you like come and check out
   our nice non existing tapping hardware at hitb, but if you think you
   are so good that you coud lay you hands on all this information why the
   .... can't you find out my real name or nick. With that i wish you a
   very nice day.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:05.

HITB network master is police snitch

   If you realy want to know i looked up the details. *** CENSORED *** and
   works for a detachment company where he is now stationed at the police
   offices in emmen to manage the IT infrastructure of the police.

   Think of that. The person who manages it infrastructure for the police
   is managing the network at a so called hacker conference. I am sure
   your tapping infrastructure is well hidden at hack in the box. And as a
   nice detail, what company sponsored hitb last year in amsterdam? Yes.
   It was fox it.

   * editted by groente: please don't abuse our blog for d0xing.
     * reply

   Submitted by fierman on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 01:10.

HITB is hardly a hackerscene

   HITB is hardly a hackerscene event. It is a network event for the
   security industry. please do not confuse the two :)
   Also, it is not up to us to judge on what people do in their spare
   time, and where they work; especially when the distinction is very
   clear. Completely different discussion, which only distracts here.
     * reply

   Submitted by zarya (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 12:14.

Very nice you found all that

   Very nice you found all that information, but its still wrong. I will
   give you the right details then.

   I am Rudy my nick is Zarya. it is true that i do something with
   networking for the Police but its nog managing but its designing there
   is a big diference. today is my last day in this function. I have
   nothing to do with the tap department i design firewall and network
   infrastructures i dont implement them.

   I hope you are well informed now. btw i dont work in Emmen.

   If you still think that we install tapping equipment at HITB that one
   is true, in the bar downstairs you will find most of our tapping
   equipment. It is used to tap a alcoholic liquor called Beer.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 16:26.


   HITB was sponsored by Fox-IT last year, and even worse this year
   their sponsor is VUPEN who supplies western governments with:

   As the leading source of advanced vulnerability research, VUPEN
   provides government-grade exploits specifically designed for the
   Intelligence community and national security agencies to help them
   achieve their offensive cyber security and lawful intercept missions
   using extremely sophisticated codes created by VUPEN Vulnerability
   Research Team (VRT)."

     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 11:58.

Response from  {AT} ioerror

   I'm really happy to see that someone took the time to write this
   and I'm also happy to see that it was related to puscii. For those that
   do not know the history of ascii and puscii - these two groups are two
   extremely important parts of Dutch/European sustainability, artistic,
   hacking and autonomous culture. I've long respected their squatting
   activity, their Free Software ethics and their political actions.

   I find the observations in the article extremely grim and depressing -
   it is largely as a matter of agreement, I might add. The desire to
   collaborate with authoritarian power structures is often hand-waved
   with "one has to eat" or "we're not helping Syria" style arguments.
   They're often followed up with arguments about fear of punishment or
   about the so-called justice done on occasion by such structures. The
   privatization of this kind of policing is concerning. It is built on
   already questionable notion that the police themselves would be
   legitimate actors in this space if they merely had the talent. This is
   false in many cases and such partnerships generally seek to expand the
   authoritarian reach of the State, without any of the democratic
   oversight, transparency or even the semblance of consent on the topics
   at hand. Most people hardly understand the abstract ideas involved, let
   alone the actual concrete details.

   The Dutch police actually do this on many levels - that is - they do it
   not only with private Dutch companies like Fox-IT but also with other
   law enforcement. The FBI has some full time people who are embedded
   within the Dutch law enforcement offices. My understanding is that they
   have desks in the same (!) office area as other Dutch police. Consider
   this as a threat not only to the Dutch democratic processes but also to
   the notion that the Netherlands is somehow independent in terms of
   law-enforcement and intelligence. Surely, one would not jest that the
   FBI deployed with the Dutch police would serve the Dutch police first,
   right? Perhaps they'll take some puscii members who are actually Dutch
   citizens to sit with their FBI office counterparts? It seems doubtful
   and as such, it raises questions on a number of levels.

   I've met a lot of Dutch police in the last few months as I have
   visited the Hague for the latest NCSC event. Many of the higher level
   computery security folks are personally nice people. Even some of the
   AiVD people are personally friendly - quite a difference from some of
   the other intelligence agencies. Obviously, I'm not in agreement with a
   lot of their policies, their methods, tactics, strategies or even
   comfortable with their relationships. While they do work for goals that
   I think are reasonable such as stopping non-consensual human
   trafficking, it is perhaps with methods that may lead to abuse or other
   serious concerns. I don't hold any personal contempt for them for doing
   what amounts to a thankless job. I do however find myself thinking that
   the new Dutch hacking generation should not forget that some power
   structures are not worth supporting simply because one is not
   oppressed by it on a daily basis.

   With that said, the complicity of hackers in these kinds of actions is
   beyond loathsome. Rather than helping to actually secure our systems,
   see compromises that undermine the very core of our modern world. If we
   look to the physical world for an analog of such total surveillance,
   even in camera heavy parts of the world, humanity still largely rejects
   such total spying programs, if they are lucky enough to be consulted at
   all. Why then should people of any stripe help to build similar systems
   that are nearly total and almost completely incomprehensible to most
   people on the planet? The answer is simple: we shouldn't! Hackers and
   those who are technically literate have a responsibility to consider
   larger issues at stake. Those who don't, who just follow orders, who
   simplistic self-serving reasoning in place of thoughtful ethics - those
   people are building a world where most of humanity will be subservient
   to such architecture. Total identification, total and complete logs of
   our activities, our relationships, our beliefs, our experimentations,
   our core values - everything. History will not reflect well on such
   people and the near future will be extremely uncomfortable if those
   resisting have anything to say about it.

   I look forward to leaked documents and leaked software about companies
   like Fox-IT as well as details on such surveillance programs. While
   people are digging, don't forget to identify the people and the money
   trails involved - if such companies will promote and construct such
   systems for all of us, lets give it to them first!

   Leak more documents!

   In solidarity,
     * reply

   Submitted by anon on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 13:56.

Response to Jacob Appelbaum

   Americans are not part of the solution right now, Americans are part of
   the problem. That is a very black and white statement. One which I
   don't fully believe in. But Jacob Appelbaum is an American who is part
   of the problem. By exporting his self-righteous belief and morality
   upon other countries, he distracts attention from the source of many of
   todays problems: the united states of america.

   That the US law enforcement agencies are infiltrating the Dutch police
   is not the fault of the Dutch police. We are forced by the US patriotic
   and oppressing foreign politics to have these feds among us. No-one
   here wants them, yet we are powerless against the sanctions we face
   when we go against the US.

   Jacob, you are a crowd pleaser. You are someone with a black-and-white
   view of the world, one which reminds a lot of the McCarthy period in
   your country. Where you were either a morally impecible American or a
   communist. Where a witch-hunt was commenced to clear the US of any
   leftist dissidents. Or the recent wars you waged, wars that no-one
   wanted but everyone was forced to join with your president's 'either
   you are with us or you are against us'.

   You are forcing people away from a good cause by making the world
   appear to be a matter of black-and-white. Please fix your own country
   before you blame other countries for compliance with your colonial and
   oppressive regime.

   Many of us work in IT, many of us work with Cisco, IBM, Microsoft,
   Fox-IT, Madisson Gurkha, Philips, Competa, LogicaCMG, Pink/Roccade and
   any other number of larger and smaller IT firms. All of those people,
   in your black-and-white view of the world are 'against you'. Do not
   think you will find sympathy within that group (still the large
   majority) by claiming they will be the first against the wall when the
   revolution comes. Those are empty threats.

   Also, what has puscii done lately for the world at large apart from
   writing rants from their wellfare-benefit paid for armchair in their
   illegaly squated dwellings? Nothing.

   Please Jacob, go back to fixing your own country and stay there until
   you fixed that. Don't go bragging about telling other countries they
   are bad for complying with your own policies.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 20:26.

So PUSCII is government

   So PUSCII is government sponsored... that's outragous.

   And for all this money they sell complaints and grievances.

   It's rediculous.
     * reply

   Submitted by groente on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 20:48.

for the record

   puscii was and always will be completely independent from whatever kind
   of sponsorship. neither do we have to rely on rich parents or state
   allowance for our daily income.
   also, our complaints and grievances aren't sold, you get them for free.
   it's indeed ridiculous.
     * reply

   Submitted by Jacob Appelbaum (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 -

stay classy

   (For your information: The original post wasn't by me - it was posted
   as part of a discussion on a mailing list; I'll reply to you here as
   this is the forum where you have decided to participate.)

   Your attempts ironic nationalist rhetoric is only made worse by the
   notion that all perceived members of some national group are somehow in
   lockstep. It is made worse by your statements that we're somehow less,
   even when one generally agrees with you! Perhaps you could have made
   some overtly anti-Muslim statements with your xenophobic commentary?
   Perhaps in the next reply?

   I'm a very vocal person about the United States of America and so often
   a critic that it causes me serious issues. For you to suggest that I
   distract attention from the issues that directly relate to the US is
   simply incorrect. My 29c3 keynote was entirely about the threat that
   the NSA poses to the entire world and that this fault is squarely on
   the shoulders of the people in the US. Did you miss that? Did you miss
   the discussions about the drone strikes or the illegal wars? I have
   protested the Afghan war from the outset as I did with the Iraq war and
   the drone war over the entire planet. When I spoke out against the
   assassination of even Bin Laden himself that I was (actually) spit upon
   by other Americans. Do you seriously suggest otherwise?

   The entire point of my statement is that the FBI shouldn't be sitting
   in the Dutch police offices - if more Dutch people knew that this was
   the case, I suspect there would be protects, actions and likely
   lawsuits. As far as I understand Dutch law, it is actually quite
   illegal. When you suggest that you are powerless, I suspect that you
   mean that you have made your choices and feel powerless in your
   position - for whatever reason - if you feel that you are really
   forced, bring it out and show that you are forced; openly debating is
   one of the only ways that these things will change. This is why I
   called for more leaked documents - the internal debate that is hidden
   from view will help to clarify exactly these issues that puscii raises.

   Your comment is particularly offensive when you compare me to the
   McCarthy era as one of the McCarthyists. I have lived in the last four
   years under heavy surveillance, with intense harassment and I have been
   unofficially blacklisted at times by my very own government. Why is
   that? Because I have effectively protested and resisted those wars you

   You like to suggest that I'm of the black-and-white cloth without
   understanding that there are hard edges. Yes, I firmly believe that
   political assassination by the state for free speech related issues is
   essentially always wrong. No, I do not believe that people working at
   Cisco are evil. No, I don't think that people writing proprietary
   software are bad people - at worst is is simply a waste of human
   effort. Hardly a stark condemnation. You suggest that because some of
   my hard edges are controversial that I'm black-and-white for every
   topic. Absolute nonsense. I think those at Cisco who helped design and
   implement the Golden Shield project, especially those who marketed it
   for finding religious minorities - those people are on the wrong side
   of history.

   I have worked extensively to stop US companies from participating in
   such activities because I agree that the US is the source of so much of
   this technology. I am not alone in this action, I'm a minor player at
   best. Does that mean that I have a black-and-white view? No. It means
   that I have firm boundaries and I stand my ground. People who work on
   products that are *intentionally* used to assist in ethnic or political
   cleansing are on the wrong side of history. When they are later known
   to be used in such a way, I think continued support of it is extremely
   questionable. If you think you're the majority with such behavior, I'd
   encourage you to claim it openly. If you think the majority of such
   behavior isn't even remotely related, I'd encourage you to state that
   openly as well. If it isn't a big part of the business, I guess it
   should be an easy part of the market to abandon.

   I agree that the United States is in dire need of reform - our wars,
   our imperialism, our push for things like a new CALEA, our drone
   strikes, our War on Some Drugs; all of it and almost without exception.
   It is however nearly impossible for the US to have such reform as long
   as other countries refuse to push back even slightly.

   You suggest that I alienate you and others from these otherwise good
   causes and I say, if you're alienated by your perceptions of my
   actions, I question your actual commitment to these causes in the first
   place. I'm not a fan of the falun gong but I would never side with
   those who torture them because I consider their beliefs or expressions
   to be different than my own.

   Oh and while we're talking about our own national politics - I look
   forward to your analysis of the Dutch monarchy, the Raad van State,
   internet and telephone surveillance, and its role in supporting the
   aforementioned US imperialist wars.
     * reply

   Submitted by Juerd (not verified) on Wed, 03/27/2013 - 22:34.


   (Cross-posted, like the original article, to both this blog and the
   mailing list . In Dutch; sorry about that.)

   Puscii skribis 2013-03-26 13:16 (+0000):
   > What's wrong with the kids these days?

   Om je uitspraken in de juiste context te kunnen lezen, zou ik graag
   willen weten wie de schrijver van het artikel is. Hoe oud (bejaard?)
   je, als je deze mensen "kids" vindt? En waarom heb je het idee dat het
   fenomeen dat je beschrijft, iets met generaties te maken heeft? Wat
   leeftijd er eigenlijk toe?

   > On the moral decay of the Dutch hacker scene

   TL;DR: Ik ben het ten dele met je eens, maar vind dat je het te zwaar
   aanzet, en ik kan je argumentatie niet helemaal volgen.

   > In short, we're looking at a complete new generation of Dutch

   Wat kort door de bocht. Er is verloop, maar er vallen zeker geen
   generaties te onderscheiden.

   Het gaat hier echt niet om kinderen en ouders. Je metafoor klopt m.i.
   totaal niet, en staat potentieel de kern van de discussie in de weg.

   > Some of the kids found a way: join the police!

   Alsof er nooit eerder hackers bij of voor de politie hebben gewerkt?

   > Now, the notion of hackers voluntarily joining the police probably
   > sounds completely absurd to an outsider

   Alleen omdat outsiders denken dat alle hackers crimineel zijn. Dat
   noch voor de oude rotten, noch voor de jongste aanwas.

   > The Dutch High Tech Crime Unit is called Fox-IT. In case the
   > name doesn't ring a bell, they're the main sponsor of OHM2013,

   Ik vind Fox-IT geen prettig bedrijf, maar als ze hun geld willen
   uitgeven aan onze feestjes, zeg ik: met beide handen aanpakken die
   (Al was het maar om meer profijt te hebben van het geld dat we met z'n
   allen aan belastingen betalen.) Het moet onafhankelijkheid niet in de
   weg staan, en daarom ben ik een stuk skeptischer als het gaat om het
   sponsoren van hackerspaces en doorlopende initiatieven, maar voor
   kortstondige dingen zoals evementenen zie ik weinig risico's. Het is
   niet alsof we bij het organiseren van eerdere evementen vervelend
   gedaan als overheden zich van hun beste kant lieten zien met hun
   vriendelijke medewerking.

   Joh, al komt het geld van de paus. Zonder geld kun je het evenement
   van de grond krijgen.

   Daar staat tegenover dat ik erg blij ben dat zoveel Nederlandse hackers
   diep in de buidel tasten om hun hackerspace de kans te geven om
   financieel onafhankelijk te blijven.

   > employer of half of the organising core team

   Lichtelijk beangstigend als je het mij vraagt, maar dit zegt wellicht
   meer over de arbeidsmarkt voor hackers, dan over de mensen die ervoor
   kiezen (of zich genoodzaakt voelen) om voor Fox te gaan werken.

   > and you may find their logo painted on the wall of a Dutch
   > - not as a fuck-the-police-type graffiti, but as a thank-you for
   > kind sponsorship.

   Fuck the police vind ik sowieso een kinderachtige houding waar ik me
   graag van distantieer. De politie is een gigantische organisatie van
   voornamelijk welwillende mensen. Dat ze ook (grote, gigantische,
   verwerpelijke) fouten maken, is nog geen reden om de politie als
   organisatie als vijand te zien. "Alle kleuren zijn mooi" is te kort
   de bocht.

   Onder hackers en hackerspaces bestaat grote diversiteit. Dat er een
   hackerspace is die sponsorgeld accepteert en een vosje op de muur
   schildert, wil echt niet zeggen dat de gehele Nederlandse
   hackergemeenschap daar achter staat. Sowieso heb ik begrepen dat ze
   (Hack42 dus) een specifiek project hebben laten sponsoren, niet de
   hackerspace zelf.

   Hacken betekent voor verschillende mensen ook verschillende dingen. Wie
   het hacken vanuit een puur technologisch perspectief benadert, zal zich
   minder bezwaard voelen om activiteiten te laten betalen door laakbare
   partijen, dan wie hacken (ook) vanuit een ideologische hoek ziet.

   > Not caring much for their customers regard for human rights, Fox-IT
   > has promoted their services to countries like Iran and the United
   > Arabic Emirates, and sales to Egypt have also been confirmed.

   Als je de verkoop van producten en technieken aan landen met dergelijke
   nare regimes, hoe denk je dan over het gratis weggeven van software en
   het openbaar delen van kennis?

   En wat hebben ze ueberhaupt verkocht? Is een mes een wapen, of een
   gereedschap dat (al dan niet toevallig) ook als wapen kan worden
   Hoe zit het dan met schroevendraaiers?

   > AntiSec NL, a Dutch group closely linked to Anonymous.

   Ja, want iedereen weet dat Anonymous een vastomlijnd en enkelvoudig
   is, waar je banden mee kunt hebben. En ze blijven altijd binnen alle
   universele ethische grenzen.

   > A clever hack, if you will, but also a controversial and illegal one.

   Veel hacks, van hackers in privesfeer, van bedrijven en van overheden,
   zullen controversieel en illegaal zijn. Maar controversiele en illegale
   dingen kunnen best goed zijn. Ik ben fel tegenstander van
   maar je kunt je in het debat beter niet laten leiden door wat er
   momenteel in de wet staat. Vaak zat is de wet zelf gewoon fout.

   Je kunt "het is illegaal" simpelweg niet als argument gebruiken in een
   discussie over ethiek.

   Of, anders gezegd: you say "illegal" like it's a bad thing.

   > Lately, Fox-IT has been publicly lobbying to create legal rights for
   > law enforcement to actively crack target systems.

   Het is hun recht om een mening te hebben, die mening te uiten, en te
   proberen de wet aangepast te krijgen om hun wensen uit te laten komen.

   > [Fox-IT] are the prototype of a privatised blend of law enforcement
   > and defense, unhindered by any ethics and stretching its praxis to
   > shady borders of legality.

   Hear, hear.

   > That's the kind of company considered hip amongst contemporary Dutch
   > hackers, who seem all too happy associating with and working for

   Er zijn hackers die dit hip vinden en graag voor zo'n bedrijf willen
   werken. Er zijn ook hackers die homoseksualiteit haten. Er zijn hackers
   die PHP fantastisch vinden, en er zijn hackers die vinden dat domme
   mensen minder rechten zouden moeten hebben.

   Zoveel hackers, zoveel meningen. Het zijn net mensen.

   > Those early days of the hacker scene were marked by a shared sense of
   > ethics

   Ethiek is een persoonlijke beleving, en inderdaad is er vandaag de dag
   zeker geen consensus binnen (enorm gegroeide) de hackergemeenschap. Hoe
   groter een groep wordt, hoe meer het op allerhande gebieden het
   gemiddelde van de bevolking zal benaderen. Dat betekent voor
   hackergroepen vaak dat de gemiddelde intelligentie afneemt en dat de
   ooit gedeelde ethiek niet meer zo vanzelfsprekend is. De schaduwzijde
   van sociaal succes?

   > For example, one look at the CCC website is enough to see a strong
   > outspokenness on the political issues surrounding hacking, actively
   > monitoring and criticizing state surveillance.

   Dat zal ook heel veel te maken hebben met hoe vroeg de CCC is begonnen,
   met hoe enorm de CCC propaganda voert binnen de eigen gelederen, en dat
   het een grote club is waar mensen blijkbaar graag bijhoren. Nederland
   heeft zo'n organisatie niet en het window om een dergelijk instituut op
   te richten is volgens mij al geruime tijd voorbij. Nederlandse hackers
   van weleer, de oldies die je eerder benoemde, hebben kennelijk nooit de
   neiging (of het doorzettingsvermogen) gehad om zich officieel te
   organiseren en in die structuur op grote schaal gezamenlijk politiek te
   bedrijven. Dat ze dit hebben nagelaten, kun je ook opvatten als iets

   > Are OHM and a number of hackerspaces drifting away from the hacker
   > scene towards the security industry?

   Hacker scene en beveiligingsindustrie overlappen. Het is duidelijk goed
   mogelijk om je in beide te begeven, hoewel dat zeker sociale
   consequenties heeft. Werk je voor Fox-IT, dan zul je sommige geheimen
   wellicht niet te horen krijgen van andere hackers. Ben je actief in de
   hackergemeenschap, dan zul je sommige geheimen wellicht niet te horen
   krijgen van je werkgever. Of juist wel, om je loyaliteit en
   geheimhouding op de proef te stellen. Ik benijd mensen die zichzelf in
   die situatie brengen in ieder geval niet.

   Wat betreft OHM: bij het organiseren van zo'n feestje werp je je op als
   quasi-professioneel evenementenorganisator. Er komt weinig typisch
   hackwerk bij kijken. Het is hard werk, waarbij politieke menings-
   verschillen vaak geen belemmering vormen.

   > The usual approach to such mental illness that is seen all too often
   > within the hacker scene is to simply ignore it and bury it deep down
   > in our subconciousness.

   Er is een prettigere manier om om te gaan met diversiteit: omarmen!

   Net zoals je mag geloven wat je wilt, en ik het niet met je eens hoef
   zijn, en zoals je mag uitspreken wat je vindt, en ik het niet met je
   eens hoef te zijn, mag je ook werken voor een werkgever, zonder dat ik
   het met je eens hoef te zijn. Dat hoeft samenwerking en vriendschap
   in de weg te staan.

   De situatie wordt overigens echt niet genegeerd. Het is heel vaak
   onderwerp van discussie, althans zeker bij RevSpace, en ongetwijfeld
   in andere hackerkringen.
     * reply

   Submitted by groente on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 00:49.

 {AT} juerd

   The metaphoric use of generations shouldn't be taken too literally, i
   think it has more to do with the general spirit of the times then the
   actual age of people. What i was trying to accomplish was depicting a
   simplified genealogy of the narratives within the dutch hacker scene.
   The generation metaphore seemed appropriate enough and saved me from
   having to use tl;dr-academic-talk.

   As for why the notion of hackers joining the police sounds absurd?
   Trying to wave that away because of the way the media has depicted
   hackers seems a bit too easy. I don't even think hackers are generally
   regarded as criminals. Online rebels? yes, criminals? not necessarily.
   Hacking has connotations of the subversive (no wonder given the
   self-labeling as techno-anarchists) and playful creativity, which
   hardly are attributes one would ascribe to the your average police
   Speaking of the your average police constable; before you dismiss a
   fuck-the-police as childish, please bear in mind that being on the
   receiving end of a truncheon (often enough simply for voicing ones
   opinion) doesn't generally add to ones willingness for nuance and

   Having said that, let's get a bit more to the point. You (and you're
   not the only one) seem to claim that Fox-IT has no influence whatsoever
   on the organisation of OHM. Don't you think it's ironic that the
   spokesperson of OHM today quoted in Der Spiegel stressing how there was
   no influence on the program ... is also working on marketing at Fox-IT?
   While it may not be as apparent as direct influence on the program,
   there are of course reasons why a company hands over a pretty large
   amount of money.
   What bothers me most is the image of acceptance it portrays, by
   accepting a company like Fox as your sponsor you're implicitly
   endorsing its policies and activities. So yes, Fox-IT has the right to
   express and lobby for their political views, but that sure doesn't mean
   you should endorse them. Quite frankly, when OHM has activists listed
   as their target audience yet at the same time endorses a company like
   Fox-IT, this leads to division by zero.

   The subject of endorsing brings me to your point regarding diversity.
   Sure the scene is very heterogenous and in principle this is a very
   good thing. But when you say 'there are hackers who hate
   homosexuality', I would sure hope they be removed from the terrain the
   moment they start their hate mongering. Celebrating diversity and
   freedom of speech should not be confused with blindly accepting the
   intolerable. As much as I empathise with peoples economic circumstances
   that might force them into jobs that go directly against hacker ethics,
   I maintain it is a very wrong signal when the promotion of said jobs is
   silently endorsed or even encouraged.

   Anyway, one of my main reasons for this rant was the impression people
   didn't know or simply didn't care. I'm happy to hear there's already
   been lively discussion at revspace. I'm also very happy to see there is
   now a much broader discussion and I sincerely hope all those
   considering boycotting Ohm will still be there to participate in the
   real life discussions on how to deal with these issues.

   ps. I'm really not that old, but don't you know it's impolite to
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 10:11.

"Don't you think it's ironic

   "Don't you think it's ironic that the spokesperson of OHM today quoted
   in Der Spiegel stressing how there was no influence on the program ...
   is also working on marketing at Fox-IT?"

   How is this ironic? What are you suggesting?

   "there are of course reasons why a company hands over a pretty large
   amount of money."
   In this case, what specific reasons are there?

   "So yes, Fox-IT has the right to express and lobby for their political
   Do they have the right to lobby for their political views? What rights
   are these rights exactly?

     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 11:07.

To be clear, the sponsor

   To be clear, the sponsor contract was signed September 2012. The two
   board members of IFCAT didn't work for Fox-IT at that time.
     * reply

   Submitted by gmc (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 01:36.


   That is incorrect. I started working for fox-it in june 2012.
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 03:13.

K.I.T.T.! I need you!

   But we all loved Michael Knight from the Foundation for Law and
   Government (F.L.A.G.) and MacGyver of the Phoenix Foundation, didn't

   All those adventures, going where official law enforcement and military
   couldn't go due to some pesky laws.
     * reply

   Submitted by Herman Acker (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 10:21.

Old people seem to forget details about the past

   Groente glorifies the past and despises involvement of Fox-IT. As a
   hacker from the past I would like to note that the past was less
   glorious. We didn't have a respectable Fox-IT company backing

   Organized crime and radical groups tried to get a foothold within the
   hacker community with the aim of abusing any outcome. These guys were
   always in the background, trying to influence the community and to
   monitize hacks. I don't see fox or any other security firm sponsoring
   these events doing this.

   For the record: I have no ties with Fox, I don't like it when someone
   tries to abuse history.
     * reply

   Submitted by groente on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 06:10.

Old people seem to be in need of glasses

   Sure the past had its fair share of problems, but atleast the
   narratives and praxis seem a lot more coherent. And given the trail of
   dirt they've left behind, I'm not so sure whether I'd qualify Fox-IT as

   Is actively recruiting in the scene and sponsoring events not 'trying
   to get a foothold within the community?' Also, monitizing hacks is
   pretty much their core business. If you can't see that, I would suggest
   a visit to the optometrist...
     * reply

   Submitted by anon (not verified) on Thu, 03/28/2013 - 21:22.

official statement

   Here's an official statement on the OHM2013 website regarding this

     * reply

   Submitted by Damien Ward (not verified) on Fri, 03/29/2013 - 16:32.


   Hi there Groente -- would love to talk to you about this topic some
   more, is there any way I could get in contact?

     * reply

   Submitted by groente on Sat, 03/30/2013 - 03:53.


   Hey Damien,

   Sure, you can find me on IRC (IRCnet, OFTC or irc.indymedia.org), or
   mail to groente at surprisesurprise puscii dot nl.
     * reply

   Submitted by gmc (not verified) on Sat, 03/30/2013 - 15:06.

On hackerspaces, Fox-IT and OHM2013

   My personal contribution:


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