Re: <nettime> Direction of Travel

[paul via Nettime-tmp <nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org>]

Hey Rich,

On 2023-06-13 at 12:26 -04, quoth Rich Kulawiec via Nettime-tmp 
<nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org>:
> These may or may not be good options, but I thought that the 
> idea was
> to do everything possible to avoid having to revisit this issue 
> in the
> future -- which is why I didn't volunteer to host the list even 
> though
> I could have it running on existing infrastructure in a matter 
> of hours.
>
> Otherwise: what's the plan when riseup.net (et.al.) go away? 
> (That's not
> a rhetorical question.)  You'll be right back here again.  The 
> only way
> to avoid this inevitability is to run your own domain, mail 
> system,
> and mailing list -- and to structure it so that it's a 
> lift-and-drop
> operation to shift it to another host should that need arise.
>
> These are baseline skills for any competent sysadmin, so this 
> shouldn't
> be that hard.  There have got to be half a dozen (or more) 
> people here
> who have this skillset, right?  Or who are capable of learning 
> and who
> are willing to invest the necessary time/effort?
>
> Otherwise, all that will happen is shifting and deferring the 
> problem,
> not solving the problem.  And if you want to choose that path: 
> well,
> it's certainly an option.  But that choice will have 
> consequences.

I definitely appreciate your concerns.  Having said that, i don't 
know if it's realistic for us to predict the future that way. 
Riseup could disappear tomorrow, the server set up by a whizkid 
volunteer could disappear tomorrow, and presumably even Panix 
could disappear tomorrow.  100% agree on running with our own 
domain name though, that's table stakes to be able to migrate 
seamlessly and maintain control of our destiny.

I do not intend to troll here, i am being sincere when i say that 
as i see it, the challenge is largely social, rather than 
technical.  I think no matter what solution we choose, maintenance 
will be involved, random incidents will need resolving, and yes, 
perhaps down the line another move will be necessary.  In my view 
the way to be resilient to these (inevitable, but i could be 
wrong) events life throws at us will be to have a larger 
moderation/janitorial team than we currently do.  If we have at 
least 5 (for arguments' sake) invested and involved folks, i'm 
confident they'll be able to work something out when the time 
comes.

One angle i do think makes something like Riseup.net less 
desirable is our level of control - i might be wrong, but if they 
only offer a "turnkey" solution of a mailing list as an appliance, 
it would make other things nettime-l has done in the past 
difficult or impossible (such as, say, a Twitter bot that sends 
out notifications of new emails).  From that perspective, i do 
agree that a new home would probably more "home brewed" than that. 
But let's see what they say.

But on the topic of priorities, if it were up to me, i'd consider 
Mailman (or alternative software) and the public archive to be the 
minimum viable foundation we're aiming for, if we are to consider 
the migration a success.  I would (personally) want to hold off 
with other less foundational/essential features until we're very 
comfortable that we've found a moderation team and have the 
mailing list running stable again.

Cheers,
p.
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