j bosma on Sun, 12 Jan 97 09:57 MET |
[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]
nettime: Rop Gongrijp interview: Namespace |
Rop Gongrijp is one of the directors of xs4all, the Amsterdam based internetprovider that has its origins in the hackers collective Hacktic. JB : We're here to talk about your disagreements with Paul Garrin concerning his project. You just told me that you were approached from the early start of the project to give your cooperation, but that you have not been involved for the rest. In what way were you approached? RG : Paul Garrin would have liked it if xs4all would have supported his project. When it comes to this project I have to make a clear distinction: there is Namespace the idea and Namespace the technical construction. Namespace the idea is fantastic, it is very good that people are asking questions about the structure of the internet. What kind of structure is it, where does it come from, why is it the way it is? It is good that people are getting aware that the technical structure of the net has something to do with the political agenda behind it and that the structure of the technique can also be a political choice. This is important to see and in this sense I admire the initiative. Paul Garrins criticism of the way the distribution of names is in the net now is partly a just one. So he built a project around this that hands out new names, new domains within the existing system. He claims things now as if they are allready possible today, like "everyone can have his or her own topdomain (a topdomain is for instance .org or .com ), thats no problem whatsoever, noone owns these topdomains and everybody can hand out these domains, so Namespace does not claim these domains as its own but is just one of many that can distribute them..." Well, first of all the technique does not work this way, it is a crude lie, everything needs to be built still. Secondly he presents the idea as if it can be launched in a practical sense today. Thats not how it works. His system would crash completely with a double or triple usage. So he makes statements about this system that are simply not true. JB : What is the biggest problem in this, what makes this an impossible project? RG : There is an organisation called IANA. This is an international organisation that creates standards for the internet. They also alot these topdomains. You can have a lot of criticism as to how this is done, and I have criticism, but it still is a relatively democratic organisation that is chosen by all organisations connected to them from several countries. Next to them Paul Garrin claims some topdomains, .sex and some 200 other ones. There are a few other initiatives like the one by Paul Garrin. For instance AlterNic and others that claim the same topdomains. The problem is that the structure as it is now is hierarchic. That means when a domain is created one particular server has to know all the names within this domain. Like there is one server that knows all .nl names. For every domain there is such a server. Some are clustered in one server like american domains .com, .org, .edu. These are all on the InterNIC server. JB : So what is the exact problem, would that be that there are too many names that appear more then once? RG : The problem is what gives Paul Garrin the right to claim .sex and not AlterNic. They both claim .sex and they both have subdomains for this. So who am I to turn to? Is .sex Paul Garrins topdomain or does it belong to the other gang? And its the same story with about 10, 15 other domains of which I have no possibility of deciding what is whose. JB : It sounds like a problem of double telephonenumbers.. RG : Exactly. Somebody shouts: "There are not enough phonenumbers in the Netherlands, so I distribute some new ones." But there are 10 groups of people with the same idea and they have overlapping area codes. So where can you go ? Thats one problem, then there is another. Imagine an alternative phonecompany that hands out new phonenumbers, they all start with 09 because it is not being used yet, just an example. As they go along they claim all not existing area codes, a few hundred are still free, so why not. Just choose a number everyone. But, not everybody can call these numbers. Only when your telefone exchange is involved in the project, these numbers can be called. Like all members of xs4all could reach these new domains if xs4all would join in the project Namespace, only in case your local telefone exchange joined the phonenumberproject that I gave as an example, these numbers would be within reach. But people put these numbers on their bussinesscards. So they give you a number that works sometimes, but can just as well not work. The same problem we have with these Namespace names. So if you put a link on your homepage to a Namespace name, this link works for some and for others it doesn't. This abuses people that do not understand the technical side of it. For these people it is unclear why it works sometimes, but not always. I think that is wrong. The system as it is might have its bad sides, but it works and it is clear to people why it works. And before I demolish it I want to be sure I can replace it with something better. The technical side of Paul garrins project is about 5 years away of replacing what we have today. Besides this at this moment work is being done internationally to replace this system we have now for something better. Its not true that nobody sees the problem. What Namespace adds to all this is that it creates a lot of attention for the problem. So don't understand me wrong: that aspect of the project is good. Its just that the practical solution that is being offered and the positiveness with which he says his solution works and the fact that he says everybody that does not believe him is mad, that is not ok. JB : Is that what he says? RG : O yes. I have been called a person that didn't understand everything so well anymore, somebody that has lost his roots. All my disagreements were called without substance. Everybody that does not agree or points at mistakes in the technical structure is a part of the "stalinist conspiracy the internet has become" before he or she knows whats happening. Fine with me, but it makes discussions harder. JB : I did an interview with Geert Lovink before I came here, also about Namespace, and he is of the opinion that Namespace is an political artproject more then anything. For him the names that people buy from this project should mostly be seen as pieces of art. I understand from you that this is absolutely unclear to the audience and that Paul Garrin does not present himself this way. RG : Maybe it is part of this artpiece that Paul Garrin presents it as a very serious project that could be reality tomorrow. Judging Paul Garrin from the emails we have exchanged and the public irc-debates we had about this subject I would say he sees it either as an artproject but does not say so, or he without doubt does see Namespace as a company. This last thing is what he keeps saying all the time. I don't mind this, but he never says it is an artproject. Which might be part of the artproject. Namespace is no credible alternative for the domain name system. Its a nice way of getting attention for a problem that is not even so much the biggest issue on the Internet. It does not deserve the kind of attention that it gets through Paul Garrin. I have the feeling he sees this "stalinist conspiracy" and that it is all really bad and it must be broken now, by all means. I have trouble convincing people about the technical credibility of this, because it does not have any. Technically it is air. JB : Namespace has had some starting problems, illness of programmers and so on.. RG : This is not a problem that you solve on your own or with a few friends. Internet is built by hundreds of thousands of people that have programmed it. You can't solve this with three people, not from the structure Namespace has now. You solve this by working with large groups, involving universities etc. And this is happening allready! The solutions that are being developed are technically much further and more innovative then what Paul Garrin is proposing. He proposes to convert the present system a bit to create more freedom, while there are allready things going to create a whole new system that has more possibilities. This new system sets us free from the piramid of naming of the domain name system. JB : Who organises this? RG : IANA and more precisely the Internet Engineering Task Force, a subdevision of IANA that is concerned with engineering issues of the Internet. JB : I heard that in some countries the name distribution is getting more and more commercial and names are harder to obtain for certain groups of people. RG : The allotting of names has got a price tag since a few years. It is getting more expensive. It went very fast. In America you can buy a .com or a .org for I believe 100 dollars a year or once. It could be a bit less now. In the Netherlands it is the same. There is a yearly rate and one for once. JB : But this is different per country? RG : The rules for this are different per topdomain. JB : Does the state, the governement of a country decide on this? RG : Not in America, not in the Netherlands, maybe in some other countries, I don't know. Mostly strange organisations do this, like in the old days in the Netherlands the Institute for Mathematics. Now there is the "Internet Domein Registratie Nederland", that introduced fees. JB : Suppose that in some countries it is being made difficult for some organisations to get a name because of bureaucracy or corruption, censorship maybe. Wouldn't it be easy for them to get a name via Namespace now, instead of waiting for the new developments in Name giving? RG : No, because Namespace only works for the members of a few smaller providers. It simply doesn't work for 99,9 percent of the people of the world. Namespace also is not capable of doing it for more then one percent of the worldpopulation. It is not realistic. If you want your information out into the world, Namespace is the worst choice, because only this small percentage of the world can access it and it will never be able to work for the rest. Next to this you can always avoid local problems or so by taking the alternative of applying for a .com or .org. These are originally american domains that are used worldwide. You can get them anywhere in the world. The only problem you might have then is that you have to buy from an american commercial company: InterNIC, a service of another commercial company. But it does work. For some countries 100 dollar a year is a lot of money. You can buy one name with for instance 20 people and make subdomains. Under xs4all.nl we can create a billion names, no problem. So if there is a name somewhere, names can be created under it for systems all over the world. The whole idea of an insane scarcity that threatens the Internet is overdone in my opinion. There are problems on the net, the problem of Spam, there is a problem with commercialisation, but on the terrain of namegiving the situation is not that urgent and stalinist and grave as Paul Garrin presents it. JB : Are you real opponents when it comes to this? How big is the enmity? RG : I can appreciate his project and have told him this many times, as statement. But as soon as he presents it as a credible alternative and people buy it out of lack of technical knowledge, I have a problem with it. It is not fair. I can understand it all from this artproject idea. As an artist it is in your interest that people believe you. But as soon as people start to use this name it will not work. As soon as people think they are accessible for the world with such a name, it is not true. I find that a real pity. Then he overshoots his mark. Next to this he has told me a lot about Namespace the company. If this is an artproject, or a kind of joke, then he is amazingly serious about it. He told me some time ago this story: " The plan is to ask some big american provider to give access to their Namespace name. If the provider refuses this, then say: listen, as Namespace we offer a service, which is names and InterNIC does the same thing, providing names. Obviously InterNIC has a cartelpact with all providers, because our names are not accepted and those of InterNIC are. That is cartel and illegal. With this a judge will be approached." In the States you will always find some local judge that gives a temporary injunction, saying this is not allowed anymore. " Netcom, offer the Namespace names too, at once." The moment this happens there will be an enormous juridicial confusion and the whole world will stumble over this project, so much that he could make a lot of money out of it. You see, a lot of new topdomains will be allotted soon to break InterNICs monopoly. IANA does this. They did see there is a problem with InterNICs monopoly and they will create new names. You can see Namespace, and maybe this is another conspiracy theory, as a very smart plan of Paul Garrin to get some of these new names for himself. "Give me one of those new topdomains and I will keep quiet for the rest". >From all the things he has said to me in public and in irc debates one can derive this as a possibility. This could be a very smart plan of Paul Garrin to make some money. Whether he solves a worldproblem or is of help to the people that buy a name with him now, I wonder. * -- * distributed via nettime-l : no commercial use without permission * <nettime> is a closed moderated mailinglist for net criticism, * collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets * more info: majordomo@is.in-berlin.de and "info nettime" in the msg body * URL: http://www.desk.nl/~nettime/ contact: nettime-owner@is.in-berlin.de