[Nettime-bold] Casarini's Interview with Il Manifesto

[florian schneider <fls@kein.org>]

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Von: Thomas Seay <entheogens@yahoo.com>

Below is my translation of Casarini's (spokesperson
for Italian Tute bianche White Overalls) interview
with the Italian Independent Left Newspaper "Il
Manifesto"

    No More White Overalls Anymore

Interview with Luca Casarini, one of the spokespeople
of the "disobedient".

"When you see an armoured police vehicle coming your
way, you run or react in the same way you react when
you see a gun pointed at you.  We, in Genova, in Via
Tolemaide, built a barricade to safeguard our
well-being. For three hours we reacted against police
attacks. We along with lots of others.  Carlo died
while defending himself against attacks by the
paramilitary carabinieri..  At the same time, he was
there along with thousands of men and women to affirm
that "another world is possible".  Luca Casarini,
spokesperson for the group of social centers
[centri-sociali] in the northeast of Italy,
charismatic member of the Tute bianche, one of the
driving forces of the Genoa Social Forum, does not
have tempered words about the days in Genoa. " There
is a huge difference between 
those who construct a barricade to defend themselves
and those who decide to  militarily supress a large
scale movement, such as the one against economic
globalization.  The former affirms the right to change
a reality that produces misery and exploitation.  the
latter defends the G8 which is an illegitimate
organization that wants to decide the destiny of the
world ignoring the desires and hopes of those who
inhabit it."

In Genoa we have seen the end of political mediation
between movements and institutions. I am thinking of
the month in which the Genoa Social Forum (GSF) 
carried out direct negotiations with the government,
during which time the oppositional, center-left
members of parliament said nothing of significance.
Or the implosion of a party like the DS...

To speak of death is sad after what happened to Carlo.
Yes, in Genoa the institutional left died.  Try to
imagine the embarassment of the center-left which
helped prepare for the G8 summit and then finds itself
face to face with the images of brutal beatings and
Carlo laying dead on the asphalt.  They stammer and
are speechless.  And yet, preparation for the G8 was
their thing.  We have attempted to analyze the global
government.  We talked about Empire or better yet the
imperial logic of the global government.  This means
erosion of national sovereignty.  Not an end but
erosion and reshaping itself into a global, imperial
system. In Genoa we saw the warlike way in which this
manifested itself.  How to oppose this imperial system
is a burning question which we were ill-prepared to
answer.

Il Manifesto:  It seems to me that the Tute Bianche
are also finished.

Ended.  That's a bit too strong.  Exhausted perhaps,
the
conclusion of a phase, certainly.  The tute bianche
was
an experiment which attempted to make the idea of
conflict legitimate again.  Try to picture the Genoa
Social Forum.  There are Catholics and us, the Arci,
the Cobas, the Lilliput Network, Drop the Debt and
Fiom.  A powerful mixture.  We acted as the main
driving force without trying to gain hegemony.  As
tute bianche we have covered a lot of ground and
questioned ourselves as to what we were doing.
A positive experience but one which now seems
inadequate to deal with the imperial system that faces
us, where politics is the continuation of war and not
vice-versa, as Karl von Clausewitz has written.  Think
about the Balkans, Palestine, Africa.

Many people forecast that that this autumn we will
enter a delicate phase of social struggle.  
Workers who have seen the Cisl and the Uil sign a
humiliating contract and the Fiom who has called for a
general strike.  Then schools that have become
businesses, hospitals that treat health like 
merchandise...

It's these last factors that bring me to say that the
phase of civil disobedience has been exhausted.  Now
that needs to change into social disobedience. It
needs to be noted that all aspects of the Genoa Social
Forum are in a state of crisis. But this does not mean
paralysis so much as a recognition of the limits of
its analysis, perspective and political agenda.  That
social forums are created in every city is positive,
that they form alliances is fundamental.  Even if I
prefer to think not about alliances but a social
process in which the movement becomes a magnet that
exercises its influence on social forms and realities
through a distance.  Think about what happened in
Genova with attorneys and volunteer healthworkers. 
Lawyers who were certainly democrats but certainly not
close to the Genoa Social Forum, who after having
discussed the matter, decided to wear shirts with "
Union of Democratic Lawyers" inscribed on them and to
come to the demonstration; these same lawyers argue
with genovese lawyers after the police beatings grew
into the hundreds and had them write a harsh document
about the workings of the government to the Department
on Criminal Matters.  Or look at the experience of the
nurses and doctors who looked after those who had been
beaten and then got beaten themselves by the police
forces.  Two positive examples of networks that
developed as a result of being drawn to the theme of
the
movement.

This doesn't mean that all is going so smoothly.  We
find ourselves faced with a  tough difficult reality
which must be understood and analyzed anew.  It's not
fascism but a change of state form which lends itself
to a profound transformation in the means of producing
wealth and subjectivity.  And that is on a global
level.  Think about what happened on the streets of
Genoa.  It seemed like a riot not a street
demonstration.  This needs to be understood, analyzed.
 I am not talking about the "Black Block" obviously
but about those that fought back.  The so-called
"Black Block" should not be incriminated though.  They
are people who believe that to attack capitalism it
suffices to break windows.  That's their "Smash
Capitalism".  We think otherwise.  We think in terms
of a process of social transformation
where "the network of several networks" becomes a 
magnet which grows in strength and favors the birth of
other social networks.

Il Manifesto:  I think that it's right to posit that
after Genoa "nothing is the same as before".  But for
you, what has changed?

I ask that you revisit the days of Friday the 20th and
Saturday the 21st.  Or better the photo that the
weekly "Carta" and then you, "Il Manifesto" published.
It was done by Tano D'amico and shows how already in
Via Tolemaide, well before Carlo was killed, the
police [carabinieri] had pulled out their pistols from
the holsters against us.  This shows the militaristic
position of the government toward the 
anti-G8 demonstration.  The police charged violently.
We fought back and I stand behind our response as a
political fact.  Nonetheless, for us to also take up
militaristic tactics would b crazy and political
suicide.  At Genoa there were all the forces of order,
the army, the Secret Services of the eight most
powerful - both economically and militarily-nations
on the planet.  Our movement cant measure up with that
type of military power.  We would be crushed within
three months.  Therefore we have to find a third way
between those who reject economic globalization and
those who opt for a symbolic gesture, like demolishing
a bank.

Il Manifesto:  There are those who argue that Via
Tolemanide was a trap into which you fell...

Was there naivite on our part?  Maybe.  But I see it
in another way. As Tute Bianche, we signed a pact with
the Genoa Social Forum and we respected it.  In the
preparatory meeting for the day of "disobedience
(Friday, 20th) we never hid our intention to violate
the Red Zone.  We were even clear about what
instruments we would use.  We didn't carry clubs or
attack weapons.  We didn't even wear white overalls, a
decison discussed at length among ourselves at Carlini
Stadium..  I think that it was right to do so because
when you immerse yourself in a networked reality such
as this movement, the important ingredient is not the
demands of one group as much as the "contamination"
between different groups who nonetheless share a
common goal.  If in Genoa we were naive,  then this is
how we were naive:  remaining faithful to the pact,
respecting those who thought differently from us but
who like us wanted to achieve an objective.  Was it a
trap?  Yes,
set there to ensnare the entire movement.

In the past, it has been written that the Tute bianche
were faking it.  That confronting the police was a
gag.
There were those who went to the point of saying that
we had some kind of agreement with the police forces. 
It has never been so.  Two, three years ago we thought
at length about how to act in a conflict without it
becoming destructive.  Our technique was different: we
stated publicly what we wanted to do, letting it be
known that if the police attacked us, we would defend
ourselves only with shields and padding.  It was our
rule because it was essential that we create conflict
and consensus about the objectives that we set-up for
ourselves. In Genoa we expected that more or less the
same thing as usual would happen.  They  deceived us. 
Try and remember the meetings of the Genoa Social
Forum with Scajola and Ruggiero:  none of the
guidelines agreed upon were respected by them.  The
police forces used firearms, even though they had
assured us that they would not be.  The right to
demonstrate which Ruggiero agreed was an inalienable
right was run over under the wheels of the armored
police cars.

Il Manifesto: And now?

For me it is essential to start from what has been
called "The Carlini Laboratory".  Intense experience.
It taught me a lot.  For example, how to build
a public space where "multitude" was not just a word
but a shared political constuction by the
"disobedient".


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