Matze Schmidt on Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:57:31 +0100 (CET)

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<nettime> two-bitcoin?! The full text in chat-format

A tour in the orbit of bitcoins'[s] circulation, revolution and
condition of flowing concerning the measure of value based on
human labour
December 20, 2013
(17:08) 20:00 - open end (in English)
The full text in chat-format


For text with German comment see:

[05:05 pm] System: Chat room created. 
                   Welcome! To invite people to the chat room, just 
                   give them this address.
[05:05 pm] System: n0name DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[05:08 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam now here: 
[05:08 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open?
[05:08 pm] n0name: don't have the time, got to work.
[05:09 pm] n0name: since 17:08
[05:13 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?!? two-bitcoin?!
[05:13 pm] n0name: but not the money is the richnessnes
[05:13 pm] n0name: bitcoining 20-open? don't have the time, got to 
[05:13 pm] n0name: The sudden reversion from a system of credit to a 
                   system of hard cash = monetary system. When does 
                   it happen? When the rich don't have the money the 
                   poor don't have the jobs -- the [unlink] bidder 
                   [unlink] thinks.
[05:17 pm] n0name: Symbolic bits as money are currency of money.
[05:19 pm] n0name: perhaps "Means of Payment"
[05:24 pm] n0name: buy ... pay
[05:25 pm] n0name: Means of payment, means of buying
[05:26 pm] n0name: Marx quotes Luther, who differentiates in money as 
                   means of buying and means of payment -- in:
[05:27 pm] n0name: Karl Marx. Capital Volume One Chapter Three: Money, 
                   Or the Circulation of Commodities SECTION 3 MONEY 
                   B. Means of Payment
[05:27 pm] n0name:
[05:29 pm] n0name: So there can be a delay between buying an paying. 
                   This inbetween can cause inbetweeners.
[05:30 pm] n0name: The vendor becomes a creditor, the purchaser 
                   becomes a debtor.
[05:31 pm] n0name: But we are talking (chatting) about G-G', which 
                   means money-more money.
[05:32 pm] n0name: A form of value.
[05:34 pm] n0name: The inbetween (delay) of the act of purchase and 
                   the act of payment causes the credit.
[05:37 pm] n0name: Currency (latin "currens") is the condition of 
                   flowing. The thing that moves constantly, whereas 
                   commodities fall out of the process.
[05:39 pm] n0name: credere = believing, entrust
[05:40 pm] n0name: The creditor is a beliver and belives in the 
[05:41 pm] n0name: The current (or stream) of money came to a halt for 
                   the credit.
[05:43 pm] n0name: This is:
[05:43 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin?! TextJam as A tour in the orbit of 
                   bitcoins' circulation, revolution and condition of 
                   flowing concerning the measure of value based on 
                   human labour December 20, 2013
[05:43 pm] n0name: The current/currency is a sort of orbit, the cours 
                   de la monnaie.
[05:47 pm] n0name: What began as C-C (commodity for commodity, became 
                   the form C-M-C (commodity for money for commodity).
[05:48 pm] n0name: And then M-C-M (money for commodity for money).
[05:49 pm] n0name: "the money. [...] is continually withdrawing 
                   commodities from circulation and stepping into 
                   their places,"
[05:49 pm] n0name: ... as the C always is to be consumed, and the M 
[05:50 pm] n0name: bitcoins can be a money too ;)
[06:03 pm] n0name: ...
[06:04 pm] n0name: as a form of value (according to the 'theory of 
                   value' following Marx)
[06:05 pm] n0name: two-bit is lousy
[06:06 pm] n0name: "bit" is the binary digit, it can have only one of 
                   two values
[06:07 pm] n0name: the value of the bit is not an economical value
[06:08 pm] n0name: They call the bit "the basic unit of information 
                   in computing" -- in fact it is a term for the 
                   oscillating of computations/calculations.
[06:09 pm] n0name: ...
[06:17 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:18 pm] masgnu: true/false
[06:19 pm] masgnu: some thesis by the critics may be that bit-systems 
                   (computer systems) determine the values of finances
[06:23 pm] n0name: "to send and receive so called 'coins'" does not 
                   necessarily determine values.
[06:24 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:24 pm] n0name: Values of finances may be a concept with problems 
                   since it suggests a value 'coming out' of the 
[06:26 pm] System: masgnu DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:27 pm] masgnu: but the trade can form the values of the 
[06:29 pm] n0name: Okay, but mining of "bitcoins" is a mining on the 
                   basis of 'regular' money/currencies. Trading of C 
                   (money) as currency not as pay-money may cause 
                   shifts in their prices.
[06:29 pm] masgnu: the libor scandal
[06:30 pm] n0name: Yes, but let's first check out the money and its 
[06:31 pm] n0name: To find out what's going on with bits of coins.
[06:33 pm] n0name: In order to find it out, we can differentiate forms 
                   of money as »buy-money«, »pay-money«, »currency« in 
                   the circulation and money as hoard (treasure).
[06:34 pm] masgnu: money as bits
[06:34 pm] n0name: Money as bits can be regarded as coins -- as signs 
                   for the value of money.
[06:35 pm] masgnu: and coins ca become a treasure
[06:36 pm] n0name: Yes, but only when is gets immovable, when money as 
                   coins becomes money again.
[06:36 pm] masgnu: ?
[06:37 pm] n0name: wait
[06:37 pm] n0name: This is the "two-bitcoin?!" TextJam
[06:37 pm] n0name: Very much becoming a kind of radio show chat.
[06:38 pm] n0name: Its subtitle was:
[06:38 pm] n0name: A tour in the orbit of bitcoins' circulation, 
                   revolution and condition of flowing concerning the 
                   measure of value based on human labour
[06:38 pm] n0name: coins ca become a treasure
[06:38 pm] n0name: money as money -> ?
[06:39 pm] n0name: I'd say: money can be the "medium" for the value 
                   out of work.
[06:39 pm] masgnu: but as a medium that holds the value
[06:40 pm] n0name: Right -- and which does not only signify. It is -- 
                   according to Marx "Capital" -- a kind of form of 
[06:40 pm] n0name: carrier
[06:41 pm] n0name: We can take into consideration different forms of 
                   this »value-carrier«.
[06:42 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[06:42 pm] n0name: Hi, three IPs very close.
[06:43 pm] Nomos: hi
[06:44 pm] System: masgnu has left.
[06:44 pm] Nomos: okay, value as money, as coins, as medium for 
                  buying, as medium for payment, as hoard
[06:45 pm] n0name: Therefore value can be a hoard, a hoard of money as 
                   a hoard of value.
[06:46 pm] n0name: It gets from movable into an immovable 'thing', a 
                   surreal/real thing, a condition.
[06:47 pm] n0name: BTC (bitcoin) can be traded and hoarded, can be 
                   used as medium for buying, as medium for payment.
[06:50 pm] n0name: It is now (since about Dec 18) forbidden to change 
                   BTC into renminbi, the Chinese currency.
[06:50 pm] Nomos: one can still buy thing with it
[06:52 pm] n0name: A few maybe. Important here for me: BTC functions 
                   (still) as medium for buying/paying but trade 
[06:54 pm] n0name: The up and down of BTC as currency in relation to 
                   its function as means for pay was too fast and too 
[06:54 pm] Nomos: .
[06:56 pm] n0name: "Unlike traditional currencies such as dollars, 
                   bitcoins are issued and managed without any central 
                   authority whatsoever"
[06:56 pm] n0name: end of end of quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: be your own bank
[06:57 pm] n0name: there is no government, company, or bank in charge 
                   of Bitcoin
[06:57 pm] n0name: end of end of 2nd quotation
[06:57 pm] n0name: It's all phrase.
[06:58 pm] n0name: The 'virtual' currency (buy, pay, hoard, trade, 
                   credit, etc.) is related to currencies/leading 
                   currencies (government, company, or bank)
[06:59 pm] n0name: ... government, company, or bank 'driven'.
[06:59 pm] n0name: -driven
[06:59 pm] Nomos: exchange first
[07:00 pm] n0name: Who is specialised in online culture and the dark 
[07:01 pm] n0name: They say: 21 million Bitcoins are in circulation.
[07:01 pm] n0name: see:
[07:02 pm] n0name:
[07:02 pm] n0name: Coins in circulation are firstly the means of 
                   payment related to the commodities in circulation.
[07:03 pm] n0name: So a first brief statement can be:
[07:04 pm] n0name: A currency without the agencies government, 
                   company, or bank (more specifically government, 
[07:04 pm] n0name: is still related to wares.
[07:04 pm] n0name: Is based on wares = based on value(s).
[07:06 pm] n0name: So the triple of negation "government, company, or 
                   bank" is untrue. Companies, resp. are in.
[07:07 pm] n0name: As well as a) governments and/or b) banks. a) coin 
                   the coins and banks distribute.
[07:08 pm] n0name: The specialised one tells: virtual money "may erode 
                   tax-raising powers" -- and the powers of state?
[07:10 pm] n0name: On the one hand one could state: This is a 
                   neo-liberal project lingo against the state pro 
                   individual companies.
[07:14 pm] n0name: On the other hand it is onyl another M-M' just as 
                   any other currency. it may become (a) universal 
                   money (world money) -- as every nation needs a 
                   reserve of money for its own circulation, it 
                   requires one for external circulation in the 
                   markets of the world (see Marx, "Universal Money").
[07:16 pm] n0name: BTC can become one like EURO, Dollar ... That will 
                   not change the function of the national markets, 
                   even if numbers of minters a peer-to-peer buyers/
                   sellers production will be located.
[07:16 pm] n0name: Quote:
[07:16 pm] n0name: "Apparently there is already an entire trendy 
                   suburb in Berlin where you can more or less live 
                   on them already."
[07:18 pm] n0name: One M for another M (M = money). Another local 
                   currency, direct money, cheaper credit but credit.
[07:23 pm] Nomos: credit can be made here without value coming of 
[07:25 pm] n0name: A value that assesses 'itself' via the value of 
                   other values, here money -- via prices for money. 
                   A typical moment of crisis.
[07:29 pm] n0name: First theory of signs, then an economical M-M 
                   circle. When BTC is for the conduits (canals) for 
                   money needed, it will loose its value.
[07:29 pm] n0name: maybe
[07:31 pm] n0name: We call "inflation" a reflection of a reduction in 
                   the purchasing power per unit of money [means of 
                   buying], the loss of real value in the medium of 
                   exchange [means of paying]."
[07:32 pm] n0name: The measure for this is the general price index for 
                   wares ... money:wares.
[07:34 pm] n0name: bitcoin is overvalued, overprized. That's why China 
                   stopped it. The chatter of the rebellion of 
                   DIY-minters ...
[07:36 pm] n0name: ... wants to get rid of the last ressort (state 
                   banks) in case of a downmove of the value of the 
                   currency and needs it at the same time as the maker 
                   of the currencies that gives BTC the value..
[07:36 pm] Nomos: full stop
[07:38 pm] n0name: Sick of the physical, BTCers want to have the 
                   material thing and must constantly state: the 
                   modus M-C (money for commodity) is possible.
[07:45 pm] n0name: Currency market, exchange market, exchange rate, 
                   trading rate --
[07:46 pm] n0name: Buying the coin is one thing, the chain is:
[07:47 pm] n0name: _one_ chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- Commodity -- producer/seller -- other 
                   currency (for buying labour, machines, materials)
[07:48 pm] n0name: Another chain is:
[07:48 pm] n0name: BTC -- other currency, one buys bitcoin for 
                   Dollars, for instance.
[07:51 pm] n0name: Oh, democracy of the monetary system.
[07:54 pm] n0name: #One bought 10,000 bitcoins for $50
[07:55 pm] Nomos: seems the first step was a minting of a sign, the 
                  second a buy for value
[08:01 pm] n0name: ...
[08:02 pm] n0name: two-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: value-bitcoin
[08:04 pm] n0name: The arguments: BTC is no commodity based currency; 
                   without funds; trust only; gold would have no funds
[08:04 pm] n0name: .
[08:04 pm] n0name: proves itself valuable
[08:08 pm] n0name: no commodity based currency: all currency is based 
                   on value, value can only arise from work, crises 
                   show this clearly when values fall with the 
                   breakdown of value-production
[08:11 pm] System: bd GB (IP 92.40.***.***) enters.
[08:12 pm] n0name: without funds (nothing would cover it): if no one 
                   would accept the form BTC for Commodity, there 
                   would be nothing as symbols, a currency must have a 
                   fund/cover in values, here: wares
[08:12 pm] Nomos: only fund is trust
[08:13 pm] n0name: trust only (as the fund/cover): trust of or in 
                   what? a trust in a difference
[08:14 pm] n0name: the difference of a set value can only be an other 
[08:15 pm] System: bd has left.
[08:17 pm] n0name: gold would have no funds either: is fairly untrue 
                   as gold is based on its own value (metal as product 
                   of labour) and in relation to its difference, the 
                   value of other wares
[08:21 pm] System: horrorface DE (IP 95.91.***.***) enters.
[08:21 pm] horrorface: hi
[08:25 pm] horrorface: only 3 people?
[08:25 pm] n0name: interesting: BTC obviously needs a mining compared 
                   to gold which is based on its own value out of 
[08:26 pm] Nomos: a mining with computer-power
[08:26 pm] n0name: ... which holds labour power
[08:26 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[08:27 pm] horrorface: ok bye
[08:28 pm] System: horrorface leaves.
[08:28 pm] n0name: So "no funds" is no true, the media- and sign-only 
                   theory is (bye) ...
[08:28 pm] n0name: not true
[08:29 pm] n0name: ... is masking the real basis
[08:33 pm] n0name: as measure of value bitcoins is based on human 
                   labour, dead human labour realised in a machinery 
                   (a computer calculation is mining items of value) 
                   and therefore (abridged) no two-bitcoin
[08:33 pm] n0name: and the conditions of flowing here are the common 
[08:34 pm] n0name: paused
[08:35 pm] System: Sa US (IP 98.154.***.***) enters.
[08:35 pm] System: Nomos DE (IP 176.199.***.***) enters.
[08:36 pm] Nomos: so btc's theory and practise are disintegrated
[08:38 pm] n0name: Yes, but BTC has only value as coins/currency, It 
                   can not represent labour (labour-time) directly.
[08:39 pm] System: Sa has left.
[08:40 pm] n0name: Money needs its own form of commodity, and only as 
                   commodity face to face with other commodities it 
                   can represent value.
[08:41 pm] n0name: The value can not be based on a self-difference, 
                   that is impossible.
[08:41 pm] n0name: b(u)ye
[08:42 pm] n0name: [this chat still online untill 22:00 German Time]
[08:56 pm] System: Nomos leaves.
[09:08 pm] System: bluecoffeedark GB (IP 82.2.***.***) enters.
[09:08 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi. is this txtjm?
[09:09 pm] bluecoffeedark: textjam any1?
[09:10 pm] bluecoffeedark: :(
[09:12 pm] bluecoffeedark: ok.. i'll copy to a d1ff room
[09:17 pm] bluecoffeedark: you are well welcome to jam in http://
                  ;) xx
[09:28 pm] System: woffle DE (IP 79.214.***.***) enters.
[09:37 pm] bluecoffeedark: hi woffle
[09:38 pm] bluecoffeedark: check
[10:17 pm] System: woffle has left.
[10:23 pm] System: bogey HU (IP 78.92.***.***) enters.
[10:29 pm] System: sdc NO (IP 80.202.***.***) enters.
[10:32 pm] System: sdc has left.
[10:36 pm] System: n0name has left.
[10:40 pm] System: bogey leaves.
[10:41 pm] System: none IT (IP 87.18.***.***) enters.
[10:42 pm] none: what is this for?

n0name 2014

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