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<nettime> To Save the=?windows-125digestx2: senalp, hopkins]
nettime's_karbon_klub on Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:27:19 +0200 (CEST)


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<nettime> To Save the=?windows-125digestx2: senalp, hopkins]


Re: <nettime> To Save the =?windows-1252?Q?World=85_Preface_?= =?windows-1252?Q?by_B?=
     Orsan Senalp <orsan1234 {AT} gmail.com>
     John Hopkins <jhopkins {AT} neoscenes.net>

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From: Orsan Senalp <orsan1234 {AT} gmail.com>
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_<nettime>_To_Save_the_World=E2=80=A6_Preface_by_B?=
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 19:27:53 +0200

> It is not known what mechanism precipitates a spontaneous negentropic
> 'situation' in an open system (the most fundamental example being
> the'rise' of Life from ???).

Can it be the ability of carbon to form more and 'p2p' connections
allowing the formation of molecules out of variety of combination of
different elemente, paving way to emergence of richer and higher forms
of energy and information flows from sub-quanta to macro levels? 

> But any such situation requires an energy input from the environs of
> that situation... A negentropic situation is one where energy is being
> consumed at a faster rate than is the case in simple entropic
> decline...

exactly... p2p allows more of that, while enclosure means second law of
thermodynamics and disorganization! 

may be not!?

Orsan

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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:01:03 -0700
From: John Hopkins <jhopkins {AT} neoscenes.net>
Subject: Re: <nettime> To Save the =?windows-1252?Q?World=85_Preface_?= =?windows-1252?Q?by_B?=

Hallo Orsan -

> Can it be the ability of carbon to form more and 'p2p' connections allowing
> the formation of molecules out of variety of combination of different
> elemente, paving way to emergence of richer and higher forms of energy and
> information flows from sub-quanta to macro levels?

It has to be more than an 'ability" -- it is a prediliction, tendency, or 
suchlike. Carbon bonds, especially more complex (organic!) ones are energy-rich 
(they require an initial energy input to form them), so that there has to be an 
energy source, and a 'impulse' for that energy to be used to form the bond. This 
is not a spontaneous process (unless you believe in the spontaneous generation 
source of Life) and otherwise, this brings us back to the problem of an initial 
energy usage.

>> But any such situation requires an energy input from the environs of that
>> situation... A negentropic situation is one where energy is being consumed
>> at a faster rate than is the case in simple entropic decline...
>
> exactly... p2p allows more of that, while enclosure means second law of
> thermodynamics and disorganization! may be not!?

Heh, as you say that, then I can ony imagine the connection that solves the 
puzzle: p2p = life = p2p = life ... :-)

Life requires (an) energy (source) from (in) its environs. There is the idea 
that Life came to be precisely because it is an (the!) optimal way to increase 
the entropy of the universe, something the universe 'wants'. (This is related to 
the principle of Maximum Entropy Production or MEP).

While many principles of p2p are about optimizing the local situation for the 
human techno-social system, I would argue that the wider aggregate expression of 
the entire human species on the planet -- with all its idiosyncrasies, political 
horrors, and personal joys -- represents 'the optimal' situation for our 
species. Witness the success with which we have propagated! (I pass no moral 
judgements here.) If p2p was an optimal path in the wider scale, my hunch is 
that it would have already propagated more widely.

That said, it could simply be that the present model of p2p simply needs to be 
tweaked to absorb a wider view of what human relation is actually comprised. 
Whatever the case, it has to take into account the energy question -- sources, 
sinks, and the protocols of energy movement.

cheers,
JH

-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD
grounded on a granite batholith
twitter:  {AT} neoscenes
http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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