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Re: <nettime> notes from the DIEM25 launch
Frederic Janssens on Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:46:13 +0100 (CET)


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Re: <nettime> notes from the DIEM25 launch


   Some comments and proposals.

   (I only followed the live-stream.)

   Geert Lovink 
   12 February 2016 at 21:33

   >"The real challenge DIEM has to tackle is the question of organization.
   >It is called a movement, but is it really? Someone mentioned that one
   >cannot "found" a movement. They emerge, bottom up. What will happen
   >over the next weeks, and perhaps months, are local DIEM events to start
   >with Madrid, Amsterdam and for sure more that I do not know about.  This
   >is the age of the internet so how about some internet coordination?"
   >...
   >"The internet easily
   >replicates the celebs memes but the hard work of designing internal
   >democracy has yet to begin."

   Yes.

   My proposal would be to formulate it thus :

   What is needed for european level democracy to emerge is an internet protocol
   that enables large scale open discussion.

   It does not exist yet, we have to build it (if interested I have ideas how).

   The only discussion format that exists until now has not changed since millenia,
   and is limited to about 10 effective participants. (So yes, I think
   'democracy' has mostly been flawed partly because of that limitation.
   It is only with the internet that it is technically possible to go beyond.
   I see this conjunction as an opportunity to try to do it effectively.)
   We need it internally to be democratic. And only if we can achieve that,
   can we convincingly propose it as a working model for official decision making.

   Alex Foti

   13 February 2016 at 09:15

   >"So this is my constructive criticism of diem. Be transparent and
   >radically democratic, certainly. But discuss and construct clearly
   >what the ultimate aim is in concrete terms. If we want to seize
   >power in Brussels and Frankfurt, we need to point out what kind of
   >European state we are fighting for."

   Not really.

   It is a good discussion subject, and proposals are welcome.
   But I think here the first task is more fundamental :
   trying to found democracy in a multinational, multicultural,
   multilinguistic space.

   We must first find an operational definition of who is 'we'
   and what is democracy before deciding the ultimate aim and starting to
   fight.

   Felix Stalder

   13 February 2016 at 11:29

   >"The only concrete demand, or action goal, was to increase transparency
   >in the ECB and the Eurogroup.
   >It was surprising, at least to me, that one of the best speeches of
   >the evening came from Zizek (delivered in a short video) who said
   >something like: Stick to a every simple demand, but pursue it
   >vigorously and to end and see how destabilizing this can be!
   >Given that the only concrete idea was to increase transparency,
   >this sounded really sensible strategy, something that a diverse
   >coalition could form around and then formulate more ambitious goals.
   >But there was no sense at all, how this even this relatively simple
   >and non-controversial demand could be energized, articulated and
   >executed beyond being voiced at talk shows."

   Yes.

   My proposal above includes transparency in internal working.

   If we succeed we can show the way by example.

   Prove the possibility of transparency by being transparent.

   >"Repressive orders crumble when people
   >start to loose their fear and act in large numbers, despite being
   >monitored not because they found ways to evade it. Security, in this
   >case, comes from social solidarity and collective action, not from
   >technology.
   >...
   >You cannot built a social movement in a dark corner."

   Yes.

   Anne Roth

   13 February 2016 at 14:28

   "Another question concerns the non-public parts during the day: how did
   that come to be actually? How did people get chosen, who chose them,
   what was the aim, what were the outcomes?"

   Yes.

   Internal transparency is required for the stated goals.

   --

   Frederic

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