nettime's service industry on Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:31:09 +0200 (CEST)

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RE: <nettime> Re: nettime> nett!me heavy industries digest

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   RE: <nettime> Re: nettime> nett!me heavy industries digest                                                                               

     Wayne Myers <>                                                 

   Re: nettime-l-digest V1 #890                                                    
     "Owen" <>                                                     

   Re: <nettime> nett!me heavy industries digest                                   
     Phil Duncan <>                                       


Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:48:12 -0700
Subject: RE: <nettime> Re: nettime> nett!me heavy industries digest

Lukens Wrote:
>Completely apologist. Mr. Brown obviously doesnt go far enough. Nettime
>should be for Industry Insiders exclusively, in time, we can discuss a
>multi-tiered approach, based on evaluative online tests, that will allow
>us to separate into a Class-A, Class-B, and Class-C lists based up on
>degrees of insidertude.
___________my response:

Tbe above is a fascist statement.  Who is to say what anyone should discuss
at any point in time?  There is a difference between understanding prevalent
ideologies and demanding for a discussion group to stick to specific topics
based on commercial trends; especially when that group is known for modular

Brown wrote:

>I'm sorry Nettimers but I often mistake 'net culture' and 'net
>culturalists' for a society and for people who actually know what the
>Internet and its Industry actually is. I suppose you'll have to wait for
>my book Digitial Cultures: locations of production, networks of
>distribution, contexts of reception.

_________My Response:

It is obvious that Lachan Brown is driven by commericial motivations.  However,
these tendencies should not be imposed on any discussion group -- especially
nettime -- simply because these tendencies are popular in a commerical market.
 Instead his ideas should be discussed in the same decentralized way that
other ideologies are entertained, but never imposed.

If nettime is listed in industry oriented websites it is because it is thought
provoking, but this does not mean that nettime should automatically be considered
industry oriented.

With all due respect, this sounds more like a way to promote a book than
about a "productive" exchange of ideas.

Eduardo Navas


Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:38:43 +0100
From: Wayne Myers <>
Subject: beef

<beef type="painful" frequency="often">
> The people who read Nettime are primarily involved
> in the industry. I think Nettime should become more
> of an industry list.

Waa! Nettime is not the list I want it to be! Please, Nettime, morph
into the list I want you to be! I'll tell you what to be, and you be
it! Oh go on Nettime! You won't regret it! Nice list! Industry list!

> There are lists that handle the creative and critical
> aspects with greater focus. Industry issues public/private
> sectors are not discussed with such focus.

Waa! Nettime, you lack focus! Can you please have more focus! Can you
please focus on the things I tell you! I can't focus on what you do
send me! It's sometimes quite boring! Not enough focus! Can't you just
send me the interesting things?

> Nettimers, take a good look at the sites that link to Nettime. You can
> do so through There are 560 of them and they are primarily
> Industry sites. There are a few 'culture industry' sites such as Rhizome
> and whatever, and of course a number of Universities which have public
> service industrial profiles. They produce degrees and people who can
> help in the production of degrees.

Waa! Nettime - you aren't so naive as to think that your actual content
and actual gestalt group intention have any meaning or interest whatsoever to
me, or to anyone? Didn't you know that sites are defined by the other sites
that link to them, not by what they contain, just as cultural artefacts are
defined by the way they are seen, not by what they are? How else could they
be made productive? Meanwhile, I have to waste my time reading your boring
bits! That I am not interested in! Like this paragraph!

Nettime! You don't even realise what you are! You're a site! Not a mailing
list! Not a community! Oh Nettime! What have you produced *lately*?
> However, the profile of the sites that link to nettime, probably
> reflected in the great lurking silent readership too is Industrial:
> dot.coms, dot.commentary, and webmaster resources, indicating that the
> Webmasters(the Gods among them, you DO know who the GODS are don't you?)
> are among the readers of Nettime.

Nettimers, you are such hypocrites! Some of you have jobs! For money! With
corporations and companies that exist to make a profit! You must bow down
and worship Webmasters! I have a friend who is a Webmaster! He is very
clever! You should worship him too! He lurks on Nettime! I'd never have realised
how boring Nettime was until he told me! He's right! Yawn-O! Where's the focus?

> I didn't know it was Friday 13th when I posted and this is not a hoax, I
> do employ wit, pun, humour to help make my criticism - - painful as it
> often is - easier on the recipient and also easier to for me to deliver,
> but I am far from being a Merry Prankster.

Waa! Nettime! I have a sense of humour! I promise I will put some jokes
in my next post! They will be funny! You will laugh! Also, my post will
have focus! It will be pithy! I will employ wit, pun *and* humour! Painful
as it often is! I am far from being a Merry Prankster!

> Why has there been so little work on The Industry? I thought Tiz and
> Sally at East London had a very large ESRC grant (80,000 pounds) to
> study The Industry in 1998-99. Where's the beef?

Nettime! I know people 'at East London'! I can spell 'the industry' with
Capital Letters! I can use phrases like 'where's the beef' in the context of
otherwise throroughly prolix passages *and* abbreviations like ESRC!
I am *such* an insider! I am just like one of you! I can refer to grants that
were given three years ago! I know Tiz's *real* name! And Sally! I am... cool!

> You didn't know about the Industry? Nettimers, where have you been? No
> wonder none of you became millionaires (which took a sustained
> effort of will on the part of many of us adherents to the dogged public
> service project of British Cultural Studies as we are.)

Waa! Nettime! Nettimers! Listen to me! Find out how you too could have been...
*rich*! Rich I tell you! Rich!

<sings>April in Pareeeeee!</sings>

> I'm sorry Nettimers but I often mistake 'net culture' and 'net
> culturalists' for a society and for people who actually know what the
> Internet and its Industry actually is. I suppose you'll have to wait for
> my book Digitial Cultures: locations of production, networks of
> distribution, contexts of reception.

Waa! Nettime! You don't agree with me! I don't agree with you! But I am right!
So you must be wrong! That means you just... don't *get* it! Like the people that
Wired don't like!

Please buy my book!


> Lachlan

PS - Look! You don't even know who you *are*! Here's who you are!

> Nettime presents a 'multi-accentual' range of posts from a variety of
> sources, academic, artistic and industrial. Often considered, by
> academic opportunists, to be a politically engaged 'virtual community' a
> forum for 'the hacker class' providing critical and creative opinion on
> the state of the digital revolution, Nettime is consumed primarily by
> people employed or employing in the online industry, 'webmasters',
> marketing and publicity companies, industrialists and so on. It
> is considered a primary industry source for news, opinion and analysis
> the industry does not readily find elsewhere. The remarkable thing is
> that Nettime provides this service for free!

I can define you by the profile of your consumers! I can use a passive
tense as a substitute for 'I think'! I can call anyone I disagree with
an academic opportunist! I am happy to use phrases like 'multi-accentual'
so long as I put them in single quotes! I can define you in *four*
sentences! (Though one of the sentences might be *quite* long!)

The remarkable thing about you, Nettime, is that you provide your service
for free! Nettime! You are so remarkable! I do wish you weren't so boring
though! You should have more focus! On The Industry! More beef!

I would like to have my own list! About The Industry! With focus! But I
don't! Can I have your list? I'll give it focus! And wit! And pun! And
humour! Painful as it often is! With beef!

Please buy my book!


- --
Wayne Myers


Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:03:28 +0100
From: "Owen" <>
Subject: Re: nettime-l-digest V1 #890

>The people who read Nettime are primarily involved
>in the industry.

</rant> what a load of bollocks!  the industry?  are you referring,
possibly, to The Marketing Industry?

nettime (as far as i know, please correct me if i'm wrong) is a Mailing
List - one of many such demons - and as such is neither more nor less than a
PUBLIC forum (long may it remain so).  the whole culture of Boxing, Naming,
Hyping and the big E Exploiting things (people, software, mailing lists) is
what got the so-called (is that DotCom, .com or dotdotcom?)
'Industry' in it's 'bubble' trouble in the first place.


Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:25:47 -0700
From: Phil Duncan <>
Subject: Re: <nettime> nett!me heavy industries digest

> >The people who read Nettime are primarily involved
> >in the industry. I think Nettime should become more
> >of an industry list.

Is aesthetic, social, cultural, economic and political critique yet to 
become colonized by the rhetoric of industrial annexation?  Being a fairly 
recent reader/thinker/way-minor contributor, I have looked to nettime as a 
breath of fresh otherness in a world overcome by "MacMedia Culture."  Sad 
would be the overlay of indigenous culture in lieu of artifices of 


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