|Károly Tóth on Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:43:47 +0100|
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|Syndicate: zeroglab rotterdam: L.M. -Digital Constru...rary Style|
____________________________________________________ zeroglab-rotterdam name: KÃ¡roly TÃ³th address: Gedempte Zalmhaven 923, 3011 BT Rotterdam NL tel: +31 (0)10 2400390 or 2400391 e-mail: email@example.com firstname.lastname@example.org if you do not get answer within a few days, please write to this address: email@example.com webpage: http://www.tip.nl/users/terra ____________________________________________________ THE NEGATIVE RIVER project/workshop @DEAF98 Rotterdam NL http://www.v2.nl/deaf ____________________________________________________ TO YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE: my email and homepage addresses has been changed recently. the old homepage address was: http://users.bart.nl/~terra this homepage still seems to work, but I do not have access to it anymore. the old e-mail address was : firstname.lastname@example.org from Karoly Toth zeroglab rotterdam to Lev Manovitch. Some remarks related to the design monolog of Lev Manovitch' latest correction of his views. I want to focus on the last 2 paragraphs of L.M.'s publication (Syndicate: Digital Constructivism: HCI and Contemporary Style ). Partly to what Lev says, and partly about some tendencies in the so called media hype which i am personally sick of. (subjective, but quite phisycal). I am talking from the position of the practicing artist. (not web artist, not media artist, because I see these terms as not relevant, text based, and highly discriminative, and it is used to split off new art activities from the mainstream (art m.) which is not streaming at this moment, isolate it and neutralize as not relevant art form. In the so called art world i see tendencies of a very much simplification of the whole, wich is I belive more complex. ) First I want to use some of the Hype_textural techn. and quote Lovink first. 'There is a huge gap between these two views. "Only Proust can save us from the internet"--that's the dominant view within Western elites. But instead of a real fight between these schools, I see a lot of ignorance, arrogance, confusion, and misunderstanding. Aren't you a bit to optimistic about the synthesis of the artist-engineer-intellectual (and worker, one could add...).' (L.M.-G.L. Dig....isme....on Nettime) K.T.: Thanks for Manovitch 4 the charming 'ignorance, arrogance, confusion, and misunderstanding' (G. Lovink) , not even mentioning my IK Engem, Nekem Enyem, ME Karoly, (european artist, quite typical attitude I experience many times when I meet people from the u.s. ) contribution to the discourse. My "Tarzanizing" can be seen as a critical method (european!!!!!) ( just want to help 2 L.M. because I think, the critical meth. used by academics is 2 academics. :)). I think Lev Manovitch LOOKS very scientific, but I think, he is NOT. The methods he is using is very exclusive, and the people he focusing on is also exlusive and exclusive. I wondering, what Lev Manovitch want to say 2 us. K.T.: Who is Proust? K.T.: A dead one webmaster. (>cookies). Text based! K.T. A question to Lev Manovitch: Who is Proust? Why is Proust is Proust? Please Lev Manovitch answer. (through open channels please!) L.M. : How would "no-design," anti-subjectified interface look like? Like Shulgin's and Jodi's pages? Yet, Jodi interface pretty quickly became a label, now to be found on Web art sites everywhere. Shulgin almost became a label with Form Art, but then he wisely escaped from net.art into music. K.T. A question 2 Lev Manovitch-usa from Karoly Toth-europe. What do you mean if you write this: "anti-subjectified". Please answer. (through open channels please!) K.T.: Who is "Versage"? Is IT a designer who was shot by a hitmen? Is IT dead? Is IT, you say popular in Russia? Or is IT different? Please anwer! Stage 4 [Prothesis] L.M.: "How would ... design ... look like? .....Shulgin ....Jodi ...... writes L.M. K.T.: ME personally, ME ARTIST (tarzanizing), I make art, based on partly subjectivity (which is also a critical method), and based on MY research work. Not to forget, art IS science, called art. It means whe deal with knowledge. I ME ARTIST create FACTS. Artifacts. Called: artifacts. Subjectivity is a critical method to deal with reality, of which I am a part of. This critical method is based on that I recognize that ---let's use the car-driver metaphore----, that I am also the PART OF the trafic-jam, and not an outsider. I am also the couse of the jammed-traffic. You Lev Manovitch, you use past and ongoing (open) events (Hystorizing them) , draw paralelles, to justify your academical point of view. Taking the easier position of an outsider, or the traffic police. (Which is ( MY experience from MY research work), the traffic police, for example IS very corrupt in Hungary and Czhe Republic., and sometimes it IS causing traffic jam. Or let's talk about some war-lords in the Yugoslav war, where guys (kind of freedom fighters) had put traffic boards along the road, (this is what I have heard (not guess, 2.nd hand info!) on the board: 10km. Which is, I think (i have no car), i think this speed is almost impossible to keep with a car. If you did not do so, the traffic police fines you. They fine you anyway, whatever you do. I experienced the same in the Czeh Republic too sometimes + Hungary. But this was only a metaphor. An interface to reality. There are many jokes in east-europe, all based on this reality, and they are totally unknown or misunderstood in "the westblock". So I stopped to tell east european jokes to my friens in Holland years ago. The last joke dive i did was with a guy from Jerusalem, (with his reality, of course) >>> see Shulgin's web-things, they are very east-european. .....so.... i want to go on with this question of Manovitch's: "How would ... design ... look like? .....Shulgin ....Jodi ...... " Let me tell an experiece i was a part of (traffic-jam). I have been working as artist in residence in Finland last year (1997). This is a fact. I made a lecture about my work (and not only mine, about activities related to cyber-whatever space research and spatiality, which I also miss in Manovitch's version of the story about design) to the students of the Fine Art academy in Helsinki at MUU-mediabase. This is a fact. It was the part of a session of lectures about web related art, organized by a Helsinki based artist Terhi Penttila. She is maybe known by the SAUNA project at Ars Electronica. My knowledge of the Finish language is very limited (iso olut + pieni olut) but I have seen the flyer of the lecture. There where the words: web art (written). I have asked Terhi about what the hack is this web-art thing. It came out that there is a kind of 'isme going on (actually i think, it appeared AFTER the last DocumentaX, as an art form, which is funny). Terhi showed me some of these web-art works. Which was also funny, the works where funny, and the fact, (this is a fact) that I appeared to be a web artist, according to Terhi, when I told her that I made this kind of artifacts before the fenomenon of web-art even appeard, she told me to present these works as web art. Which i did not do. (i have works made with some historical (DOS) MM authoring prog's. Which looked like the web art today, but at that time there was the web, but there was no web browser invented yet. (it happened acually around that time (1992), and when it was there i have already stopped to make this kind of artifacts.) There was one of these works on the old Digital City site (cca1993 see my cv. at www.tip.nl/users/terra ), one of the first web museums, the Temporary Museum of Walter vd. Cruijsen. (under the name Sandor Toth :) The title was: West Block. Then the T.M. moved to www.desk.nl and the T.M. disappeared (after several mails to the host of T.M to correct my name (answers=none). This is a fact. And this fact has happended in, Europe, Holland , and not in Amsterdam, but in The Hague. There was ONE of the first art gorup (UBUQUE) in europe (cca. 1990) which made research on these fenomenons, (NOT TEXT BASED!). I just want to help Lev Manovitch with his scientific research on web design, providing facts, to help to solve HIS problem. Apparently he has one. K.T.: A question to Lev Manovitch: Is this fact I have described above, means that: if this new art form in and around digital space IS AVANTGARDE, as Lev Manovich and Geert Lovink suggests (I do not think they are competent to decide this). Does this mean, that: then I am de Marcel Duchamp of the WebArt? Please answer. (through open channels please!) ME TARZAN YOU SCIENTIST. :) TO BE CONTINUED with tarzanizing regards Karoly Toth visual artist (appeard to be an architect) zerog art research lab rotterdam.