www.nettime.org
Nettime mailing list archives

<nettime> new europe, old europe [pocock, joe, geer, elloi]
nettime's_roving_reporter on Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:15:39 +0200 (CEST)


[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

<nettime> new europe, old europe [pocock, joe, geer, elloi]


French vote for a citizen's Europe
     philip pocock <philip.pocock {AT} t-online.de>
Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe
     joe {AT} overmydeadbody.org
Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe [4x]
     Benjamin Geer <benjamin.geer {AT} gmail.com>
Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe [4x]
     Morlock Elloi <morlockelloi {AT} yahoo.com>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: philip pocock <philip.pocock {AT} t-online.de>
Subject: French vote for a citizen's Europe
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:34:40 +0200

florian, all day i hear nothing F2F about the french vote here in=20
germany, until your nettime post. only shrugs. you are incorrect=20
however in your stats. it was not the populists and nationalists and=20
the extreme left and right saying 'no'. the polls show now that the=20
only pro-EU-constitution 'yes' majorities in France were a small high=20
income elite, that is,  those earning more than =803000 a month, and a=20=

larger group, all voters over 60 years of age. frankly (i'm canadian)=20
its as if quebec were to vote no to canada one day and the next=20
ontarians would say, let's see?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: joe {AT} overmydeadbody.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:53:06 +0200

People voted NO across the entire spectrum, left to right. But it was 
the left which tipped the balance. The antiliberal thesis was developed 
by two organisations : ATTAC - www.attac.org - an international(ist) 
organisation based in France, which was originally started to campaign 
for a tax on crossborder financial speculation to provide means for the 
development of the South, and the Fondation Copernic, an antilberal 
think tank (for want of a better term), through the call of 200 
(www.appeldes200.net) - their slogan being "Say NO to the 
Constitutional Treaty to Construct Europe".

The campaign that was built by a wide coalition of left wing 
associations, citizen groups, adhoc collectifs, allied with the 
political parties (or splinter groups, notably the Socialists) was 
based on a rigorous reading and analysis of the constitution. We were 
constantly libelled for being "Le Pen's associates". The corporate 
media acted as a propaganda mouthpiece for the YES. We reached out to 
people through tracts, meetings, and an enormous amount of internet 
activity.

We started a real debate on what we want Europe to really be, where the 
sovereignty of the people finds true expression, able to withstand the 
bludgeoning of the lobbies in Brussels, the permeabilty of the 
Commission to corporate greed. For example, the manner in which the 
European Parliament's firm NO to software patents is being overturned 
by the Commission, teleguided by Microsoft, demonstrates that the 
Parliament, which under the constitution will not be able to initiate 
legislation, remains a semi-puppet organisation.

Personally I webmastered the site of the "Alternative en Midi-Pyrenees" 
: http://www.alternative-mip.org/rubrs/non-tce/index.htm

Joe Rabie.

> florian, there are of course many perspectives onto this referendum
> decision, and some are not nice; but some of the people who have voted
> 'non' have voted neither against 'the 10', nor against turkey, nor _for_
> a more nationalist approach to france; they have simply voted against a
> European Union in the image of a neo-liberal super-state; they may be
 <...>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:53:11 +0100
From: Benjamin Geer <benjamin.geer {AT} gmail.com>
Subject: Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe [4x]

On 1 Jun 2005, "s0metim3s" <s0metim3s {AT} optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> But it seems just a little too convenient to put the result down to
> nationalism and xenophobia.

Indeed, polls after the French vote show that this explanation is
wildly incorrect:

http://www.humanite.fr/journal/2005-05-31/2005-05-31-635521

Key paragraph:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to SOFRES [a polling institution], the "no" voters made
their decision because "this treaty will exacerbate unemployment in
France" (46%), "to show they're fed up with the current situation"
(40%), "a 'no' vote will make it possible to renegotiate the treaty"
(35%), "this treaty is too neoliberal" (34%), "this treaty is
particularly difficult to understand (34%), "Europe threatens France's
identity" (19%) or "because of Turkey" (18%).  Among these reasons,
issues of social protection and opposition to neoliberalism are
clearly far ahead of xenophobic tendencies and worries about national
sovereignty.  This is confirmed by the IPSOS poll, according to which
the three main reasons for the "no" vote are dissatisfaction with the
current economic and social situation in France (52%), the view that
the proposed treaty is "too neoliberal" (40%) and confidence in being
able to get a better constitution after a renegotiation (39%).  One
last proof that at the heart of the "no" vote is the desire for
another sort of Europe: according to most of the polling institutions,
a very large majority of "no" voters (64% according to CSA) want
France to ask for a new European constitution to be written.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:14:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Morlock Elloi <morlockelloi {AT} yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: <nettime> French vote for a citizen's Europe [4x]

The problem with Big Europe (tm) is that it's in the wrong race.

For the last ten years I have seen most of europe striving to become america.
>From Germany - Frankfurt turning into a strip mall - to ukraine (the
'democracy' thingie) - it's all more or less the same story. There is almost
palpable change in the air - disappearance of the social fabric that used to be
such striking difference between "europe" and "america".

It is irrelevant whether these aspirations are 'good' or 'bad'. The point is,
Europe will always be inferior America. America had a head start and will stay
ahead in being america. This is a losing proposition - which US Democrats so
vividly demonstrated when they tried to be better Republicans.

I see the beginning of this european disintegration as an attempt to find a
different metric for the success. And that is good, as second-hand america in
europe is such a waste of resources.

The danger, of course, is that europeans may go the way of american indians.
Arms wise they're pretty much in the same position, and we know that that's
what counts in the end.

end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:

__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail Mobile 
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net