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Re: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an Int
Dmytri Kleiner on Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:14:41 +0200 (CEST)

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Re: <nettime> Debtors' of The World Unite! The Initiative to form an International Debtors' Party.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 13:09:41 +0200, Matze Schmidt
<matze.schmidt {AT} n0name.de>

> Hi Dmytri,
> yes, but the paryt was simply your kind of proposition to the rest of
> the text.

The party was used as an example of a "cause" based party, which I argue
can not mobilize the masses, and therefore can only remain politically

>> It is not in the workplace that the
>> appropriation is felt, but rather after work, when they go home to pay
>> their bills.

> this is maybe a slightly too simple view on what's called free or
> leisure time.
> There is only "free" time since there was a working time for wage
> beforehand (a non-free time and a stolen time for surplus work to
> produce the surplus product [overproduction]) and because there was a
> time without working for wage before the working time for wage. What
> seems to be left here is time to voting for parties, if you like via
> liquid democracy technologies -- in its ideologiocal parts a pluralistic
> and anti-proletarian technology -- but it remains voting within a
> sysrtem of representation.
> So important is first and foremost the time-horizon and not the places
> shifted or the drift of places. For with every hour of wage work workers
> (and service providers) pay a sort of bill, the time bill.

Not clear what you are saying here, I didn't discuss free time or leisure
at all. 

The argument is that politics must be based around economic classes and
framed according the felt conditions of those classes, not theory or
opinion, but terms of struggle. Such terms that have shifted in a
financialized, post=industrial society where most are no longer
direct-producers, and thus class politics needs to adapt to that if it is
to have resonance.


Dmyri Kleiner
Venture Communist

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